Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ The Sorcerer's Sin

[Hill Top]

The Bible says they committed it in ignorance (Acts 3:17). Ignorance mitigates the degree of punishment due to the offender (Luke 12:47-48). Ignoring this distinction seems unjust.

The only ignorance they manifested was their knowledge that Jesus was the Son of God.
They caused the death of an innocent man.
I see no mitigating factors.

The fact that you don't see them doesn't mean that there aren't any.

Mitigating factors can be created by the score, from a post-event perspective.
At the event's occurrence though, there is nothing but a murder.

[Spiritblade Disciple]

If a turn from sin is real, it will be permanent.
If sinners are speaking in tongues, (or prophesying/healing), their gift is false.
Repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins are required for the real gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

If I believed that, I'd have to conclude that I can never really know if anyone has the real gift of the Holy Ghost as I could never know for sure if anyone had really and permanently repented from all sin.

Reminds me of Calvinism's idea of Evanescent Grace.

Do you believe that if a man repents of smoking, (quits), he will keep smoking cigs ?
Won't more smoking nullify the repentance ?
You will know, on your last day, if you were faithful or not.
Until then, the "race" goes on.

More smoking doesn't necessarily mean that the prior repentance was not repentance. And, it certainly doesn't nullify the prior repentance.

Luke 17:3-4 New King James Version
"Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him."

It's possible to repent and be forgiven multiple times a day, according to Jesus.

[Hill Top]

If a turn from sin is real, it will be permanent.
If sinners are speaking in tongues, (or prophesying/healing), their gift is false.
Repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins are required for the real gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

If I believed that, I'd have to conclude that I can never really know if anyone has the real gift of the Holy Ghost as I could never know for sure if anyone had really and permanently repented from all sin.
Reminds me of Calvinism's idea of Evanescent Grace.

Do you believe that if a man repents of smoking, (quits), he will keep smoking cigs ?
Won't more smoking nullify the repentance ?
You will know, on your last day, if you were faithful or not.
Until then, the "race" goes on.

More smoking doesn't necessarily mean that the prior repentance was not repentance. And, it certainly doesn't nullify the prior repentance.

If a repentance is broken, it was worthless.

Luke 17:3-4 New King James Version
"Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him. And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day returns to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him."
It's possible to repent and be forgiven multiple times a day, according to Jesus.

Jesus was still talking to, and about OT men; who were not yet able to walk in the Spirit for the rest of their lives.
We of the NT can crucify the flesh, with the affections and lusts.
What is really dead can't be activated again.

[Spiritblade Disciple]

The fact that you don't see errors and missed opportunities as sin confirms that you and I have different definitions of what sin is.

Is it a sin if a kid runs out between cars, and you kill them ?
NO, unless you were driving drunk/drugged, and faster that the posted limit.

That depends upon the circumstances.

I supplied the circumstances above. Speeding and impairment.

So, only speeding and impairment (defined as being drunk or on drugs)? Nothing else, like not paying enough attention? Not using enough common sense to go slower than the speed limit if circumstances would've indicated to a competent driver that going below the speed limit was a good idea?

All those facets of safe, caring, driving are involved.
Circumstances are important in how one drives.

So, is it a sin if you kill the kid who jumps in front of your car while you were taking more than enough precautions ?

Assuming that "more than enough precautions" were taken, it wasn't an intentional sin. The person was actively doing everything they were capable of to avoid causing death to anyone.

Do you believe that such a driver should show any remorse? Should they do anything to seek reconciliation with the family, friends, and loved ones of the victim?

[Hill Top]

The fact that you don't see errors and missed opportunities as sin confirms that you and I have different definitions of what sin is.

Is it a sin if a kid runs out between cars, and you kill them ?
NO, unless you were driving drunk/drugged, and faster that the posted limit.

That depends upon the circumstances.

I supplied the circumstances above. Speeding and impairment.

So, only speeding and impairment (defined as being drunk or on drugs)? Nothing else, like not paying enough attention? Not using enough common sense to go slower than the speed limit if circumstances would've indicated to a competent driver that going below the speed limit was a good idea?

All those facets of safe, caring, driving are involved.
Circumstances are important in how one drives.

So, is it a sin if you kill the kid who jumps in front of your car while you were taking more than enough precautions ?

Assuming that "more than enough precautions" were taken, it wasn't an intentional sin. The person was actively doing everything they were capable of to avoid causing death to anyone.
Do you believe that such a driver should show any remorse? Should they do anything to seek reconciliation with the family, friends, and loved ones of the victim?

Remorse for what ?
Being there ?

[Spiritblade Disciple]

Does it fall short of the glory of God in any way?

Speeding and drunkenness fall short of the glory of God.
It is written..."Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled." (Titus 1:15)
Be pure; and all things done in purity, will be to the glory of God.

For sure.
And for those who don't think they can live without sin ?
Are they "pure" ?

I think maybe you are asking yourself this question?

[Spiritblade Disciple]

I agree that speeding and drunkenness fall short of the glory of God. But, I do not agree that these are the only two things a driver could do that would fall short of the glory of God.
Can you imagine any scenario in which Jesus if He were driving a car would hit a child that ran out from between two parked cars ?

Yes, complete surprise.
Would that be a sin ?

Why do you believe that Jesus could be surprised? If He could be surprised, wouldn't that prove that He was not all knowing?

[Hill Top]

Does it fall short of the glory of God in any way?

Speeding and drunkenness fall short of the glory of God.
It is written..."Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled." (Titus 1:15)
Be pure; and all things done in purity, will be to the glory of God.

For sure.
And for those who don't think they can live without sin ?
Are they "pure" ?

I think maybe you are asking yourself this question?

It was more of a rhetorical question.

[Hill Top]

I agree that speeding and drunkenness fall short of the glory of God. But, I do not agree that these are the only two things a driver could do that would fall short of the glory of God.
Can you imagine any scenario in which Jesus if He were driving a car would hit a child that ran out from between two parked cars ?

Yes, complete surprise.
Would that be a sin ?

Why do you believe that Jesus could be surprised? If He could be surprised, wouldn't that prove that He was not all knowing?

Jesus wasn't "all-knowing".
He didn't know when the end of the world would come, nor did He know who would be granted seats on either side of Himself.

[Spiritblade Disciple]

I still don't agree that all sin is intentional. There are New Testament examples of sins committed through ignorance.

See Paul's sins committed in ignorance and unbelief which he listed in 1st Timothy 1:13-16, for example. He didn't know he was sinning when he did those deeds and he didn't intend to sin when he did them. Yet, those acts counted towards Paul's being the chief of sinners.

Paul's pre-conversion actions were done under the auspices of the Law.
By the Law, there was no condemnation.
But had they been done in Christ, there would be.
Paul's comment was with NT eyes about OT events.

Ignoring the potential dispensational discussions that we could launch into from here...
Paul's New Testament perspective still included the idea of sins of ignorance. In fact, Paul cites his ignorance as a reason for finding forgiveness.

They were only sins from a NT perspective.
His OT actions were according to the Law of God.
They were not sins when he did them.

All NT sin must include temptation, lust, enticement, and conception.
In James' 1:14-15 formula, there is no room for ignorance.

What do you mean that "they were not sins when he did... his OT actions... according to the [OT] Law"?

Why did he need mercy for those actions if they were not sinful?

Didn't he count those sins as being so sinful that they qualified him as the "Chief of Sinners"?

Why does the James 1:14-15 formula preclude sinning via ignorance or deception?