Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ The Sorcerer's Sin

[Spiritblade Disciple]

Here is just one example of unintentional sin. See Acts 3:17 and surrounding text. They sinned in ignorance, but still needed to repent (Acts 3:19).

Though the cited killers may have been ignorant of whom they killed, they were well aware that murder was against God's will.
The Jewish leaders were tempted, enticed, lusted after, and committed their sin.
Their road to sin started when they started to desire His death, in John 5.

Why do you believe they committed murder? Where does the Bible say they committed murder?

The Bible says they committed it in ignorance (Acts 3:17). Ignorance mitigates the degree of punishment due to the offender (Luke 12:47-48). Ignoring this distinction seems unjust.

[Hill Top]

All sin is intentional. (James 1:14-15)

James 1:14-15 does not say that "all sin is intentional."
Given that there are examples of unintentional sin in the Bible, why do you claim to the contrary, that all sin is intentional?

It is written..."But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death." (James 1:14-15)
If temptation, lust, enticement, and conception are necessary for something to be a sin...how can one accidently commit something he was tempted to do, lusted for, and enticed to do ?

One example I can think of would be Eve. She was deceived. Would she have still given in to the temptation had she not been deceived? See 1st Tim. 2:11-14 and 2nd Cor. 11:3. Paul seems to think that real Christians can be deceived and corrupted.

Eve believed what she knew was a lie.
She exhibited a lust to "be as gods". (Gen 3:5)

[Hill Top]

Here is just one example of unintentional sin. See Acts 3:17 and surrounding text. They sinned in ignorance, but still needed to repent (Acts 3:19).

Though the cited killers may have been ignorant of whom they killed, they were well aware that murder was against God's will.
The Jewish leaders were tempted, enticed, lusted after, and committed their sin.
Their road to sin started when they started to desire His death, in John 5.

Why do you believe they committed murder? Where does the Bible say they committed murder?

The desired and ended up causing the death on an innocent man.
That is murder, to me.
Both Jer. 4:31, and Hosea foretell it.
Acts 7:52 cites it.

The Bible says they committed it in ignorance (Acts 3:17). Ignorance mitigates the degree of punishment due to the offender (Luke 12:47-48). Ignoring this distinction seems unjust.

The only ignorance they manifested was their knowledge that Jesus was the Son of God.
They caused the death of an innocent man.
I see no mitigating factors.

[Spiritblade Disciple]

Jesus said to forgive up to 490 times a day for the same sin (Matthew 18:22).
If I understand what you are saying... You are saying that the only way to tell if repentance is genuine is to never sin again. If that is true, what does speaking in tongues have to do with proving someone has truly repented? After all, plenty of people who speak in tongues have sinned since beginning to speak in tongues.

If a turn from sin is real, it will be permanent.
If sinners are speaking in tongues, (or prophesying/healing), their gift is false.
Repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins are required for the real gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

If I believed that, I'd have to conclude that I can never really know if anyone has the real gift of the Holy Ghost as I could never know for sure if anyone had really and permanently repented from all sin.

Reminds me of Calvinism's idea of Evanescent Grace.

[Hill Top]

Jesus said to forgive up to 490 times a day for the same sin (Matthew 18:22).
If I understand what you are saying... You are saying that the only way to tell if repentance is genuine is to never sin again. If that is true, what does speaking in tongues have to do with proving someone has truly repented? After all, plenty of people who speak in tongues have sinned since beginning to speak in tongues.

If a turn from sin is real, it will be permanent.
If sinners are speaking in tongues, (or prophesying/healing), their gift is false.
Repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins are required for the real gift of the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)

If I believed that, I'd have to conclude that I can never really know if anyone has the real gift of the Holy Ghost as I could never know for sure if anyone had really and permanently repented from all sin.

Reminds me of Calvinism's idea of Evanescent Grace.

Do you believe that if a man repents of smoking, (quits), he will keep smoking cigs ?
Won't more smoking nullify the repentance ?
You will know, on your last day, if you were faithful or not.
Until then, the "race" goes on.

[Spiritblade Disciple]

The fact that you don't see errors and missed opportunities as sin confirms that you and I have different definitions of what sin is.

Is it a sin if a kid runs out between cars, and you kill them ?
NO, unless you were driving drunk/drugged, and faster that the posted limit.

That depends upon the circumstances.

I supplied the circumstances above. Speeding and impairment.

So, only speeding and impairment (defined as being drunk or on drugs)? Nothing else, like not paying enough attention? Not using enough common sense to go slower than the speed limit if circumstances would've indicated to a competent driver that going below the speed limit was a good idea?

[Spiritblade Disciple]

Does it fall short of the glory of God in any way?

Speeding and drunkenness fall short of the glory of God.
It is written..."Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled." (Titus 1:15)
Be pure; and all things done in purity, will be to the glory of God.

I agree that speeding and drunkenness fall short of the glory of God. But, I do not agree that these are the only two things a driver could do that would fall short of the glory of God.

Can you imagine any scenario in which Jesus if He were driving a car would hit a child that ran out from between two parked cars?

[Hill Top]

The fact that you don't see errors and missed opportunities as sin confirms that you and I have different definitions of what sin is.

Is it a sin if a kid runs out between cars, and you kill them ?
NO, unless you were driving drunk/drugged, and faster that the posted limit.

That depends upon the circumstances.

I supplied the circumstances above. Speeding and impairment.

So, only speeding and impairment (defined as being drunk or on drugs)? Nothing else, like not paying enough attention? Not using enough common sense to go slower than the speed limit if circumstances would've indicated to a competent driver that going below the speed limit was a good idea?

All those facets of safe, caring, driving are involved.
Circumstances are important in how one drives.

So, is it a sin if you kill the kid who jumps in front of your car while you were taking more than enough precautions ?

[Hill Top]

Does it fall short of the glory of God in any way?

Speeding and drunkenness fall short of the glory of God.
It is written..."Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled." (Titus 1:15)
Be pure; and all things done in purity, will be to the glory of God.

For sure.
And for those who don't think they can live without sin ?
Are they "pure" ?

I agree that speeding and drunkenness fall short of the glory of God. But, I do not agree that these are the only two things a driver could do that would fall short of the glory of God.
Can you imagine any scenario in which Jesus if He were driving a car would hit a child that ran out from between two parked cars ?

Yes, complete surprise.
Would that be a sin ?

[Spiritblade Disciple]

All sin is intentional.

I still don't agree that all sin is intentional. There are New Testament examples of sins committed through ignorance.

See Paul's sins committed in ignorance and unbelief which he listed in 1st Timothy 1:13-16, for example. He didn't know he was sinning when he did those deeds and he didn't intend to sin when he did them. Yet, those acts counted towards Paul's being the chief of sinners.

Paul's pre-conversion actions were done under the auspices of the Law.
By the Law, there was no condemnation.
But had they been done in Christ, there would be.
Paul's comment was with NT eyes about OT events.

Ignoring the potential dispensational discussions that we could launch into from here...
Paul's New Testament perspective still included the idea of sins of ignorance. In fact, Paul cites his ignorance as a reason for finding forgiveness.