Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Sovereignty vs Free Will

[Grandfather]

Please explain to me the balance that you make between God being sovereign and Mankind having a Free Will.

I won't supply the scripture references, but there are enough to recognize that if God is not sovereign then He is not God
Yet, at the same time, there are equally as many references where scriptures says "choose....." therefor showing that man has a choice.

I've heard many difference explanations, both for and against, and each when followed to it's logical conclusion falls apart or becomes a circular argument.

Can you explain it? Or is it something we accept by faith that both are true?

[macca]

Er.... God is sovereign no question about that.
We are sovereign in our own lives, we prove that everyday by what we do and say, if anyone says otherwise they are lying.
The problem we have is making God sovereign of our lives through Jesus our Lord.
To do with the whole mind and soul and spirit and body is what God wants from us, those who are not bornagain and filled to overflowing with
the Holy Spirit have no hope of fullfilling that goal.

macca

[victoryword]

There would be no need to reconcile the two (God's sovereignty and free-will) if so many of the church had never been influenced by the unbiblical distortion of God's sovereignty handed down to us by Augustine, Luther, and Calvin with its originas in gnosticism. Their view of God's character in this regard as an all controlling deity was warped at best at demonic at worse.

If we simply stuck with how the Bible defines the sovereignty of God in which He establishes His laws and penalties but leaves man the freedom and choice to obey or disobey them then we would never have had this centuries old debate.

[Justaned]

God's and man's sovereignty can clearly be seen in the story of Joseph and his brothers. His brothers made sovereign decisions and decided to sell Joseph and tell his father he was dead. Joseph made sovereign decisions to follow what he was taught and acted accordingly. Each event of Joseph's life was sovereign unto the person that made the decision.

However when Joseph finally reveals himself to his brothers in Egypt his testimony gives all the credit for what occurred to the sovereign God.
Genesis 50:20 (NKJV)
20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

Scripture tells us scripture is God breathed so this is the Holy Spirit revealing the truth of what occurred.

How does this all take place? We don't know. We are assured God is too loving of a God to manipulate man. So God has to be fully sovereign and allow man to make his own decisions. We know that God transcend time so I believe the answer must be located in it. However since we don't fully understand how the creator of time functions in time we can only speculate.

As for criticism of Calvinism amplifying this problem, you are correct but while Calvinism is in the ditch on one side of the road, most of our thinking contrary to it is in the ditch on the other side of the road. I think the answer is going to be found on the road.

[Grandfather]

Er.... God is sovereign no question about that.
We are sovereign in our own lives, we prove that everyday by what we do and say, if anyone says otherwise they are lying.
The problem we have is making God sovereign of our lives through Jesus our Lord.
To do with the whole mind and soul and spirit and body is what God wants from us, those who are not bornagain and filled to overflowing with
the Holy Spirit have no hope of fullfilling that goal.

macca

While I've used some similar version that you've put forth in your posting in the past because it is easy to state, it does not hold true when allowed to continue to it's conclusion. If we are sovereign in our own lives, then God is not sovereign in those areas. And if God is not sovereign in all areas can He truly be a sovereign God?

I'm not disagreeing with the idea, but with the premise of how you are supporting it.

[Grandfather]

There would be no need to reconcile the two (God's sovereignty and free-will) if so many of the church had never been influenced by the unbiblical distortion of God's sovereignty handed down to us by Augustine, Luther, and Calvin with its originas in gnosticism. Their view of God's character in this regard as an all controlling deity was warped at best at demonic at worse.

If we simply stuck with how the Bible defines the sovereignty of God in which He establishes His laws and penalties but leaves man the freedom and choice to obey or disobey them then we would never have had this centuries old debate.

Victoryword,

Thats a bold and sweeping accusation you've leveled at Augustine, Luther and Calvin, but it is not the first time I've heard it. But just because it's been made doesn't mean it is true because I've also heard similar accusations leveled at those that support the position of man having a free-will.

Could you please support both that accusation as well as your position of "how the Bible defines the sovereignty of God" so I can share it with others?

[Grandfather]

God's and man's sovereignty can clearly be seen in the story of Joseph and his brothers. His brothers made sovereign decisions and decided to sell Joseph and tell his father he was dead. Joseph made sovereign decisions to follow what he was taught and acted accordingly. Each event of Joseph's life was sovereign unto the person that made the decision.

However when Joseph finally reveals himself to his brothers in Egypt his testimony gives all the credit for what occurred to the sovereign God.
Genesis 50:20 (NKJV)
20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

Scripture tells us scripture is God breathed so this is the Holy Spirit revealing the truth of what occurred.

How does this all take place? We don't know. We are assured God is too loving of a God to manipulate man. So God has to be fully sovereign and allow man to make his own decisions. We know that God transcend time so I believe the answer must be located in it. However since we don't fully understand how the creator of time functions in time we can only speculate.

As for criticism of Calvinism amplifying this problem, you are correct but while Calvinism is in the ditch on one side of the road, most of our thinking contrary to it is in the ditch on the other side of the road. I think the answer is going to be found on the road.

Ed, Interesting perspective. At least you have the courage to admit you don't know and that we must speculate. Bravo to that. However, while I believe your example supports your position I am reminded of the scripture that says "by the mouth of 2 or 3 witness let everything be established" So, while one example is great, giving two or three additional examples would solidify your position. Can you do that?

[Grandfather]

One of the key issues in the discussion of Freewill and the Sovereignty of God comes at the point of a decision to make Jesus Christ the Lord of our life.

I believe the Bible makes it clear that none of us "found" Him due to our own efforts, but we were found by Him (John 15). Yet we were given the choice to respond to His grace, but even that choice was a gift from God (Eph 2). However, that does not mean we were coerced or forced into a decision, that decision was our own free choice. However, because God knows the end from the beginning because He is the Alpha and Omega, He is not surprised by our choices, nor does He have to change His plan because of them.

[Justaned]

God's and man's sovereignty can clearly be seen in the story of Joseph and his brothers. His brothers made sovereign decisions and decided to sell Joseph and tell his father he was dead. Joseph made sovereign decisions to follow what he was taught and acted accordingly. Each event of Joseph's life was sovereign unto the person that made the decision.

However when Joseph finally reveals himself to his brothers in Egypt his testimony gives all the credit for what occurred to the sovereign God.
Genesis 50:20 (NKJV)
20 But as for you, you meant evil against me; but God meant it for good, in order to bring it about as it is this day, to save many people alive.

Scripture tells us scripture is God breathed so this is the Holy Spirit revealing the truth of what occurred.

How does this all take place? We don't know. We are assured God is too loving of a God to manipulate man. So God has to be fully sovereign and allow man to make his own decisions. We know that God transcend time so I believe the answer must be located in it. However since we don't fully understand how the creator of time functions in time we can only speculate.

As for criticism of Calvinism amplifying this problem, you are correct but while Calvinism is in the ditch on one side of the road, most of our thinking contrary to it is in the ditch on the other side of the road. I think the answer is going to be found on the road.

Ed, Interesting perspective. At least you have the courage to admit you don't know and that we must speculate. Bravo to that. However, while I believe your example supports your position I am reminded of the scripture that says "by the mouth of 2 or 3 witness let everything be established" So, while one example is great, giving two or three additional examples would solidify your position. Can you do that?

Well the story of Moses from him being placed in a basket and set adrift in the river to his leading the Children of Israel into the Promise Land has to be another classic example of Man's sovereignty and God's being knitted together to accomplish God's ultimate plan.

Frankly all prophecy given in scripture involves man's free will choice and God Sovereignty. Either God is in control of the outcome of all those prophecies or God is a real good guesser (100% accuracy rate on thousands of prophecies over thousands of years time span)

The story I love is the old prophet and new prophet found in the 1 Kings 13. If you follow that story you see man making choices, you see God's sovereignty and you see results from all those actions many years into the future. Fascinating story and one I have taught on many times.

[Justaned]

One of the key issues in the discussion of Freewill and the Sovereignty of God comes at the point of a decision to make Jesus Christ the Lord of our life.

I believe the Bible makes it clear that none of us "found" Him due to our own efforts, but we were found by Him (John 15). Yet we were given the choice to respond to His grace, but even that choice was a gift from God (Eph 2). However, that does not mean we were coerced or forced into a decision, that decision was our own free choice. However, because God knows the end from the beginning because He is the Alpha and Omega, He is not surprised by our choices, nor does He have to change His plan because of them.

Grandfather

One of the key issues in the discussion of Freewill and the Sovereignty of God comes at the point of a decision to make Jesus Christ the Lord of our life.

When that happens do we then lose our free will? If Jesus is really Lord of the our lives where does our free will play into the equation?