Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ WHEN heb 6 and 10 apply

[branham1965]

HEBREWS 6:4ff and 10:26ff

i found an interesting view by a brilliant late Jewish scholar who converted to Christ and lost everything for it.

5 things must be present for these to apply:

1.the person must be well enlightened to the truth or the plan of God in general.
2.one must have been actually justified by faith in Jesus Christ.
-many who have approached this step have not experienced actual justification.but are tentatively justified.


3.one must have been Spirit begotten.
-many who have approached this major step have not been Spirit begotten cf 1 Peter 1:3 cf James 1:18 John 3:3 born again is rendered "born anew" in the ASV and "from above" in the note.

4.one must have appreciated the deep things of Gods Word and Plan.be a mature Christian.not a babe or child.

5.one must have appreciated the immense privilege of becoming a king and priest in the next age.

thoughts....

[victoryword]

My apologies bro should have used quotes. I guess this statement is very Baptist

I believe we can backslide putting us in serious opposition to God but without losing our salvation.

He's right. OSAS is not limited to Baptists. I was reading stuff by some of R. B. THieme's disciples earlier this week and they strongly hold the OSAS (or "grace") position and these pastors consider themselves to be non-denominational.

Furthermore, many in the Word-Faith camp, the group that I am affiliated with, are beginning to embrace this view. I personally reject it wholesale.

[Justaned]

How is OSAS. I readily admit a Christian can lose their salvation?

The charge that is OSAS is without support and makes no sense. OSAS says you are always saved. Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 both say you can sin and lose your salvation and if you do you can not get it back. Where is OSAS in that?

[Rocky]

How is OSAS. I readily admit a Christian can lose their salvation?

The charge that is OSAS is without support and makes no sense. OSAS says you are always saved. Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 both say you can sin and lose your salvation and if you do you can not get it back. Where is OSAS in that?

I think you need to study this out a little more. I hope you are not teaching this to others..

[Justaned]

How is OSAS. I readily admit a Christian can lose their salvation?

The charge that is OSAS is without support and makes no sense. OSAS says you are always saved. Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 both say you can sin and lose your salvation and if you do you can not get it back. Where is OSAS in that?

I think you need to study this out a little more. I hope you are not teaching this to others..

Again where is the problem? What does scripture say?
Hebrews 6:4-6 (NASB)
4 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.


Hebrews 10:26-31 (NASB)
26 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
27 but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES.
28 Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
29 How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."
31 It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.


Where is the OSAS teaching in this and where is the problem? It says what is says.

[Rocky]

Brother the problem is your interpretation of these passages if off. I use to have a similar interpretation that you have of theses passages. You say a "Christian can backslide but never lose his salvation". That part is OSAS, but you have a twist to this like some kind of hybrid form of OSAS. That is a Christians sins willfully they can't be brought but then you also say " a Christian can backslide but never lose his salvation" wow, what a check in my spirit, this is double talk. Take me for an example, I was a Christian, then an atheist, now I am a Christian, explain that one there brother. Now I do believe in apostasy and one being turned over to a reprobate, But according to scripture a Christian can backslide, by backslide I mean lose salvation not your definition of "Christian can backslide but never lose his salvation". And, they can be brought back to to the Lord and will have to do their first works over. I don't know brother there seems to be a lot of holes in your new theology you got going on here. Like I said, just study this out a little more. And make sure what you come up with harmonizes with other Scriptures, because what you are saying here is full of holes, contradictions, and double talk. Sorry to be so blunt but just trying to help and prevent you from teaching this to others.

[Justaned]

Brother the problem is your interpretation of these passages if off. I use to have a similar interpretation that you have of theses passages. You say a "Christian can backslide but never lose his salvation". That part is OSAS, but you have a twist to this like some kind of hybrid form of OSAS. That is a Christians sins willfully they can't be brought but then you also say " a Christian can backslide but never lose his salvation" wow, what a check in my spirit, this is double talk. Take me for an example, I was a Christian, then an atheist, now I am a Christian, explain that one there brother. Now I do believe in apostasy and one being turned over to a reprobate, But according to scripture a Christian can backslide, by backslide I mean lose salvation not your definition of "Christian can backslide but never lose his salvation". And, they can be brought back to to the Lord and will have to do their first works over. I don't know brother there seems to be a lot of holes in your new theology you got going on here. Like I said, just study this out a little more. And make sure what you come up with harmonizes with other Scriptures, because what you are saying here is full of holes, contradictions, and double talk. Sorry to be so blunt but just trying to help and prevent you from teaching this to others.

Rocky
We are re plowing fields long turned over by us. But that is okay.
First the word Backslide and it derivatives are not found in the New Testament KJV or NKJV or NASB. So I’m not sure what you are saying when you say scripture is clear that a saved person can backslide.

Now let me carefully state my position so there is no confusion. I do not believe a truly saved Christian will intentionally and willfully keep sinning. I believe a true Christian can sin unintentionally, usually the sin of omission and not lose their salvation.

Then there is the situation I admittedly don’t fully understand but according to Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 there are situations where a truly saved person can intentionally and willfully sin to the point of losing there salvation. But also according to Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 once this occurs they can never be saved again.

In answer to your situation, honestly I can not say for sure but it would be my guess your first state that you mentioned was not truly saved. You weren’t reborn a new creation the old had not passed away. You may have had a holy fear of God, a desire to avoid hell and even a belief in Jesus but according to Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 you could not have been saved and gone into atheism and be saved again. Hebrew 6 says it is impossible and Hebrews 10 says there would have remained a sacrifice for your sin. It just would not have been possible.

As for the Hebrews 6 and Hebrews 10 passages that I say I don’t fully understand I believe they are dealing with our relationship in Christ. I believe a saved person is in full relationship with Christ, a position many who claim to be saved have never experienced, and for some reason the person determines in their mind to break that relationship. I think to do that they must deny the very thing that brought them into relationship to begin with and that is the Holy Spirit. To deny the testimony of Christ by the Holy Spirit is to blaspheme Holy Spirit the sin for which Jesus said is unforgiveable.

[Rocky]

Ed please hear me out, I use to be in your shoes, these are Calvinistic statements statements that you are making.
~"I believe a Christian can backslide and not loose their salvation"
~"I do not believe a truly saved Christian will intentionally and willfully keep sinning. I believe a true Christian can sin unintentionally, usually the sin of omission and not lose their salvation".
~"I believe a saved person is in full relationship with Christ, a position many who claim to be saved have never experienced, and for some reason the person determines in their mind to break that relationship"
I am sorry Brother, you are a form of OSAS Calvinism, if you piece all of this together. Now mind you this is a unique take on OSAS, but it still is what it is.. In essence this is a flirtation with Calvinism, specifically one of the 5 points of Calvinism known as the Perseverance of the saints, which is the 5th one. The reason why the scriptures you are using in Hebrews are being misinterpreted and as you admitted, you don’t fully understand is because you are trying filter it through some Calvinistic ideas that you have picked up along the way through your studies. When you say things like a true Christian can't lose their salvation, or maybe they were not saved in the first place, you are saying the same things that this theology is saying in a nut shell. Now you may not believe in Unconditional election (God's Election) But you may be a 3 point Calvinist lol, judging from my observance of your post on here since I have been a part of this forum. What is exactly is your theological background? My Background is, I use to be into Calvinism and your statements sound very familiar.

[Justaned]

Ed please hear me out, I use to be in your shoes, these are Calvinistic statements statements that you are making.
~"I believe a Christian can backslide and not loose their salvation"

You asked me to hear you out and I did. Now hear me out.
First I never said a Christian can backslide. I said a true Christian will not intentionally enter into sin.
I did say I believe a true Christian can inadvertently sin and not loose his salvation.

~"I do not believe a truly saved Christian will intentionally and willfully keep sinning. I believe a true Christian can sin unintentionally, usually the sin of omission and not lose their salvation".
~"I believe a saved person is in full relationship with Christ, a position many who claim to be saved have never experienced, and for some reason the person determines in their mind to break that relationship"

Why did you not include the last part where I clearly said Hebrew 6 and Hebrews 10 clearly say it is possible for a saved person to lose their salvation but that is was also impossible for them to ever be saved again.

Did you read this? Does it sound even remotely like I'm saying you can never lose your salvation?

I am sorry Brother, you are a form of OSAS Calvinism, if you piece all of this together. Now mind you this is a unique take on OSAS, but it still is what it is.. In essence this is a flirtation with Calvinism, specifically one of the 5 points of Calvinism known as the Perseverance of the saints, which is the 5th one. The reason why the scriptures you are using in Hebrews are being misinterpreted and as you admitted, you don’t fully understand is because you are trying filter it through some Calvinistic ideas that you have picked up along the way through your studies. When you say things like a true Christian can't lose their salvation, or maybe they were not saved in the first place, you are saying the same things that this theology is saying in a nut shell. Now you may not believe in Unconditional election (God's Election) But you may be a 3 point Calvinist lol, judging from my observance of your post on here since I have been a part of this forum. What is exactly is your theological background? My Background is, I use to be into Calvinism and your statements sound very familiar.

Rocky you can and evidently want to label this as Calvinism but that does not make it so. Once Saved Always Saved says there is no way a person once saved can ever lose their salvation. I never said that, suggested that or implied that.
But if you want to label what I said as such that is okay. Let me ask you question how do you like it when people label you unfairly?

Rocky somehow you discount the transformation that must take place in a Christian when the come into salvation. They are by God's words new creations the old has passed away. Do you believe that? What does that mean to you? That you would keep on sinning? No it means if you are in Christ the last thing you would do is sin. So when I say a true Christian does not intentionally sin where is the problem in it?

You use the come back well I was Christian and I intentionally sinned. My first question is how does that description fit the description of a new Creation? Paul talks of this and even admits he sins, which we all do. But Paul never said he intentionally sinned, only that sin did occur. I believe Paul was talking of unintentional sin, like when were react in the flesh, or by the sin of omission.

Then you say I was an atheist and then came back. Were you really an atheist convinced without a shadow of doubt that there was no God? Or were you in rebellion? Saying I don't need anyone including God to tell me what I going to do?

I don't know but I can't see how someone that is totally convinced there is a God can then become someone equally convinced there isn't a God and then once again be totally convinced there is a God. To me that is a paradox that can't exist.

But lets us say that is exactly what you did. I have to question your commitment in your first salvation. Were you transformed or was you using head knowledge of Christ, with a strong desire to avoid eternal damnation, and a desire to be a good guy?

Going back to Calvinism as everyone here calls it instead of 5 point doctrine of the Reformation. I don't think they were totally wrong on any of the 5 points. I also don't think they were totally right on any of the 5 points. Each point has a basis of truth in them but instead of staying in the middle of the road with the truth they allowed themselves to drift into ditch on the side.

The point we are discussing is OSAS and I believe there is a glimmer of truth in it but also it contains falsehoods. First i don't believe true Christians can be saved and unsaved every five minutes of the day. First of all that idea cheapens the salvation process, which is a process that many never want to speak about. They would rather it be like a switch. Either saved or not. But that is not how salvation works. Scripture talks of baby christian and mature Christians, we all know that being "filled" with the Holy Spirit is a process where we have to learn to yield our will to the Holy Spirit's. We also see commitment involved in Salvation a problem many churches are unable to address. So the process is not a switch at all.

However I do believe a Christian can willfully sin and staying in that sin come to the point that their heart's are hardened and they throw away the relationship they once had with Christ. I think this is exactly what Hebrews 6 and Hebrew 10 is talking about. At that point they have lost their salvation and according the scriptures there is not way for them to get it back.

[Rocky]

Very long post but still more double talk . Here is the definition double talk: double talk is a form of speech in which inappropriate, invented or nonsense words are used to give the appearance of knowledge and so confuse or amuse the audience. You are like a Politician. No matter how you word things your Calvinism is still showing. You really said nothing here, Just more bad theology.