Reuben wrote:Ed, what part of the above do you not believe and will defend Catholicism?When does salvation take place?This may be long Because it cannot be explained like the way we understand it, But I think you will enjoy the read even though it has my bad commentary on it lol. Yeah it is skewed, in a sense its a works based salvation even initially, kind of clean the fish before you catch them mentality. Without quoting from my catechism to much, I will just give a some up on their process, because its like 10 pages long on how to become catholic. Catholics don't use the term saved its not part of their vocabulary, even though as you know the bible uses that term. It's a born again and again, but not like Dake teaches. Every time ones goes to confession the sins get exsolved then you can take the eucharius so every time you do this you are born again. There are 7 sacraments, 4 has to do with the indoctrination process. Its not like us to were it is based on faith in Jesus and all that entails. Regeneration is not part of the catholic vocabulary either. This process is what a lot of protestants are not aware of. The 4 sacraments or designed to get the convert to be catholic enough to take the Eucharist which is what the religion pretty much revolves around.
Ok here is the process in a nutshell: like I said there are 7 sacraments but 4 are directed mainly at the laymen and new converts. I will underline the sacraments. First if you are a baby, Baptism then later the classes
If you are a new convert first the classes than baptism. Because Baptism takes away the stain of original sin, but you have to wait till Easter.(I know not biblical, but remember its not sola scriptura)
Then the sacrament of Reconciliation this involves penance and confession which has three elements: conversion, confession and celebration.
Then the Eucharist, Because the sacrament of baptism and reconciliation makes you worthy enough so to speak to be able to partake of it.
Now we get to Confirmation, It is one of the three Sacraments of Initiation for Catholics. It is most often associated with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Now after all this you repeat all except Baptism and confirmation every mass. To miss mass according to the catechism is a mortal sin because only priests can distribute the sacraments, remember its the sacraments that's saves, now a lay catholic will deny this up and down, but its is true. I know pretty confusing, now in my opinion this is almost cult like, because there is no salvation outside of the catholic church. I would be considered a heretic by the church because I know about the holy orders and the sacraments of the church but have rejected it. Catholics only believe if you don't know about all of this out of ignorance than you might can get to heaven, especially if a priest gives you the last Last Rites. If not we may have to spend time in purgatory so our works can be purified. In the catholic church purgatory is not for sinner but for those who are on there way to heaven, but are not quite good enough or have not done enough to go there or has unconfused sin. Oh, by the way the catholic church believes the convert still has a sin nature. So as you can see, are catholic really born again believers accord to what the bible teaches? To me its just empty unbiblical rituals to be blunt that cannot save a soul. I am glad that the B-I-b-l-e is a little more simplistic.
Hmmm I guess the cross was not enough. So yeah it may be a cult
I believe that is Rocky's perspective of Catholicism.
I also believe as you do that it is not once saved always saved. That when we sin we must come back confess our sins repent and come back to Christ. Catholics believe the same and part of the process of coming back to Christ is the confessional and Eucharist partaking of his body that Jesus demanded in John 6. Now I know both of us differ from Catholics on our view of Eucharist but I also probably differ from you because I believe Protestants have lost the importance of communion. Perhaps not all but a significant portion.
As far as the rest of the teaching, I know many of the old church fathers did teach similar ideas and purgatory is concept gleaned from I believe the writings of the Maccabees. Will I defend them no I don't know enough to do an adequate job. But I do know more than one Catholic that in my opinion and since God has not made me their judge it is only opinion that is saved. In fact I know many that somehow got saved in a Catholic church. In fact if I get to heaven and find percentage wise there isn't an equal number of Catholics there I will be very surprised. If that happens and if you make it I will look you up and tell you, you were right and I was wrong.
