Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Who is in control?

[Rocky]

Rocky
I am constantly being accused of putting a spin on scripture, but I never tried to blame it on gnostics.

Ed are you not aware of that background of why 1 John was written?

What has that got to do with anything. Is not scripture inspired? Does it not speak to us today? If we analyze anything long enough we can justify or make it speak to whatever we want.

We know we are born again. We know Jesus resides in us. We know we were given the Holy Spirit to help us. We are told to crucify the flesh, we are told we must die and arise in Christ. We are told if we love Jesus we will obey Him, we are told to seek God's Kingdom, we are told only holiness will see God. All of this is written all through the New Testament yet you want us discount all of it so we can maintain your perception of Free Will. If we are bought with a price does that not tell you free will must be willing to submit to Christ?

Well it has every thing to do with it, I was just trying to show you context, this is just simple bible study. Ed I am not against living for the Lord, I am not advocating sin. The fact of the matter is the verse you keep using is about dualism, about a Christian believing that he can live in sin as the so called Christians Gnostics believe that John wrote about here. I do not believe that a Christian can live in sin and remain a Christian. And what in the world is sin of omission? Is that the same as the Catholic "Venial sins"?

[Justaned]

Rocky
I am constantly being accused of putting a spin on scripture, but I never tried to blame it on gnostics.

Ed are you not aware of that background of why 1 John was written?

What has that got to do with anything. Is not scripture inspired? Does it not speak to us today? If we analyze anything long enough we can justify or make it speak to whatever we want.

We know we are born again. We know Jesus resides in us. We know we were given the Holy Spirit to help us. We are told to crucify the flesh, we are told we must die and arise in Christ. We are told if we love Jesus we will obey Him, we are told to seek God's Kingdom, we are told only holiness will see God. All of this is written all through the New Testament yet you want us discount all of it so we can maintain your perception of Free Will. If we are bought with a price does that not tell you free will must be willing to submit to Christ?

Well it has every thing to do with it, I was just trying to show you context, this is just simple bible study. Ed I am not against living for the Lord, I am not advocating sin. The fact of the matter is the verse you keep using is about dualism, about a Christian believing that he can live in sin as the so called Christians Gnostics believe that John wrote about here. I do not believe that a Christian can live in sin and remain a Christian. And what in the world is sin of omission? Is that the same as the Catholic "Venial sins"?

Rocky
What does the verse say? That Christians sin, repent, sin, repent, sin, repent? or Does it say Christians don't sin because of Christ living within them? I don't care if it was written to father of philosophy that does not change what it says. It clearly teaches Christians don't willfully and deliberately sin because of Christ who lives in them. Now isn't that exactly what says. How would that meaning change if it wasn't to written some ill conceived philosophy?

Do you suppose Hebrew 10:27 was also written to combat Gnosticism? That is why it says that Christians that do willfully and deliberately sin no longer have a sacrifice for their sin.

Then go read Hebrews 6.

What you are saying is not found any where in the New Testament. There is no doctrine of the backslider. There is no doctrine of sinning and repenting, sinning and repenting.

Doesn't that sound like being double minded? What does James say about being double minded. What does Paul say about intentionally committing sin?

You position is ground less. Show me one place in the New Testament that talks about backsliding. That was a term taken from the Old Testament and falsely applied to people that never got saved to start with.

[Justaned]

This is absolute craziness. If you want to believe in the made up doctrine of backsliding Christians then you do so at your own peril. Everything I find in scripture calls Christians to holiness. That we are we have become new creatures, the old was crucified with Jesus, that Jesus is to be our Lord. I see no room for sin in any of that.

Backsliding was invented to explain easy believism where people claim salvation but never make Jesus their Lord. They lived by the flesh and when they sinned they asked how could that happen and the pathetic preacher that was over them dug up a word out of the Old Testament and told them they backslide. That there wasn't a victory over sin. That they had to fight the temptation of sin everyday. This made sense to them because that is exactly how they were living.

This doctrine negates Jesus and places the burden on the person. It is as if Jesus can't change a person, they remain the same they just want to be good and must fight everyday to be good. Where is the freedom of sin in that. Where is the victory in that?

However if poor misguided souls ever ever read scripture they would have seen they were given freedom from sin, that they were born again new creatures, creatures that had made Jesus Lord of their life. That when they are weak (temptation) He (Jesus) is strong. With Jesus being Lord does anyone believe Jesus would lead them into sin? NO Never.

Let Jesus become Lord in you life and see if you can sin. I challenge you.

[Rocky]

This is absolute craziness. If you want to believe in the made up doctrine of backsliding Christians then you do so at your own peril.

I have never in my life heard a Pentecostal minister/teacher/preacher make a statement such as this. I don't know which is worse the hyper grace movement or the MacArthur movement that is creeping into the Pentecostal churches..

Ed: Let Jesus become Lord in you life and see if you can sin. I challenge you.

Jesus is my lord, just because I don't follow your false MacArther ideas does not make me any less of a Christian. Are you going to tell me I need to get saved again, Ed do you need a hug? .lol So now I live in sin because I don't agree with the lordship salvation theology Ed Why do you cry if some one disagrees and attacks your ideas but then you attack and disagree with others, is not that called Hypocrisy, and is not hypocrisy a sin? I guess this theology is not working for you. You can live in victory if you would only put the false theology away

[Justaned]

This is absolute craziness. If you want to believe in the made up doctrine of backsliding Christians then you do so at your own peril.

I have never in my life heard a Pentecostal minister/teacher/preacher make a statement such as this. I don't know which is worse the hyper grace movement or the MacArthur movement that is creeping into the Pentecostal churches..

Ed: Let Jesus become Lord in you life and see if you can sin. I challenge you.

lol So know I live in sin because I don't agree with the lordship salvation theology

I believe you are either saved and live for Jesus which precluded willful and deliberate sin or you are lost and participate in willful and deliberate sin.

As far as your challenge if Jesus is Lord in my life I can't willfully and deliberately sin. The idea never enters my mind.

That is not saying I live in sinless perfection, no one does. We still sin in moment, as we react, as we overlook and as we simply lose focus of Jesus but it is not willful or deliberate or intended sin.

You live in sin not because you don't believe but because you have never made Jesus Lord in your life outside of lip service.

As I said I find this crazy for a so called Christian to be defending his right to willfully and deliberately sin under the guise of it's my right because of my "Free Will" nature.

Again I say believe what you want to your own peril.

[Rocky]

Ed Wrote: As far as your challenge if Jesus is Lord in my life I can't willfully and deliberately sin. The idea never enters my mind.

That is not saying I live in sinless perfection, no one does. We still sin in moment, as we react, as we overlook and as we simply lose focus of Jesus but it is not willful or deliberate or intended sin.

But you said a Christian cant sin, now you say you do? Oh and by the way, The Bible says sin is transgression of the law, there are no sins of omission in the bible..

Ed: You live in sin not because you don't believe but because you have never made Jesus Lord in your life outside of lip service.

As I said I find this crazy for a so called Christian to be defending his right to willfully and deliberately sin under the guise of it's my right because of my "Free Will" nature.

Who is defending their right to sin?

[Justaned]

Ed Wrote: As far as your challenge if Jesus is Lord in my life I can't willfully and deliberately sin. The idea never enters my mind.

That is not saying I live in sinless perfection, no one does. We still sin in moment, as we react, as we overlook and as we simply lose focus of Jesus but it is not willful or deliberate or intended sin.

But you said a Christian cant sin, now you say you do? Oh and by the way, The Bible says sin is transgression of the law, there are no sins of omission in the bible..

Ed: You live in sin not because you don't believe but because you have never made Jesus Lord in your life outside of lip service.

As I said I find this crazy for a so called Christian to be defending his right to willfully and deliberately sin under the guise of it's my right because of my "Free Will" nature.

Who is defending their right to sin?

I said you can't willfully and deliberately sin. I said we sin many times when we react, when emotion catches us, when we forget to do what is right(sin of omission).

You are saying you can sin, lose your salvation, repent, gain salvation, sin, lose your salvation, repent, gain salvation, over and over as long as you live. And to make it crazier you say if you died while sinning and before repentance you go to hell but if you die after repentance but before the next cycle of sin/repentance you go to heaven.

That sounds like you are defending your right to sin to me.

[Rocky]

Ed Wrote: As far as your challenge if Jesus is Lord in my life I can't willfully and deliberately sin. The idea never enters my mind.

That is not saying I live in sinless perfection, no one does. We still sin in moment, as we react, as we overlook and as we simply lose focus of Jesus but it is not willful or deliberate or intended sin.

But you said a Christian cant sin, now you say you do? Oh and by the way, The Bible says sin is transgression of the law, there are no sins of omission in the bible..

Ed: You live in sin not because you don't believe but because you have never made Jesus Lord in your life outside of lip service.

As I said I find this crazy for a so called Christian to be defending his right to willfully and deliberately sin under the guise of it's my right because of my "Free Will" nature.

Who is defending their right to sin?

I said you can't willfully and deliberately sin. I said we sin many times when we react, when emotion catches us, when we forget to do what is right(sin of omission).

You are saying you can sin, lose your salvation, repent, gain salvation, sin, lose your salvation, repent, gain salvation, over and over as long as you live. And to make it crazier you say if you died while sinning and before repentance you go to hell but if you die after repentance but before the next cycle of sin/repentance you go to heaven.

That sounds like you are defending your right to sin to me.

It not my fault you see it that way.

[Justaned]

Here is what scripture says.
1 John 3:9 (NKJV)
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Hebrews 10:26 (NKJV)
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NKJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

To me that is clear. I do not see a teaching on backsliding in the New Testament, nor the doctrine of Backsliding in the New Testament, in fact I don't see the tern mentioned in the New Testament.

So you believe what you want and I will believe what I want. I did what was required of me I pointed out the fact that Jesus must be Lord of our life and when Jesus is Lord we lay down our rights. You don't agree, so be it.

[Rocky]

Here is what scripture says.
1 John 3:9 (NKJV)
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Hebrews 10:26 (NKJV)
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Hebrews 6:4-6 (NKJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit,
5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,
6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

To me that is clear. I do not see a teaching on backsliding in the New Testament, nor the doctrine of Backsliding in the New Testament, in fact I don't see the tern mentioned in the New Testament.

So you believe what you want and I will believe what I want. I did what was required of me I pointed out the fact that Jesus must be Lord of our life and when Jesus is Lord we lay down our rights. You don't agree, so be it.

No, I don't agree with MacArthur on this