Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Who is in control?

[Rocky]

Hyper grace is being addressed in other threads so I want to address other false theologies that are just as bad as hyper grace. Now As this pertains to someone backsliding or sinning willfully. I ask, as believers who is in control of our decisions on weather we remain a believer or not?
To start things off here is a quote from John MacArthur:

MacArthur: It’s not that He [God] merely sees what will happen in the future; rather He ordains it. The Bible clearly teaches that God sovereignly chooses people to believe in Him.”MacArthur Study Series (Chariot Victor Books, 1992), p 58.

Here are some Covenant/Reformed/Calvinist teachings:

If you are a "true Christian" God will prevent you from sinning or Backsliding Because you made Jesus Lord-lordship salvation

One will remain in the faith because God has sovereignly chose before hand who is to be saved, Hence the elected cannot lose their salvation, And if they do fall away it is proof the were not saved or chosen in the first place-Calvinism

A person does possess human freedom before regeneration but after regeneration, one is unable to commit willful or fall away in this new regenerated state- Monergism

Are we in control of what we choose? Are we are in control of what we do regardless if Jesus is our Savior and lord, That remaining in the faith is our responsibility as free moral agents?

Sorry, I know this is a bit long

[bibleman]

Hyper grace is being addressed in other threads so I want to address other false theologies that are just as bad as hyper grace. Now As this pertains to someone backsliding or sinning willfully. I ask, as believers who is in control of our decisions on weather we remain a believer or not?
To start things off here is a quote from John MacArthur:

MacArthur: It’s not that He [God] merely sees what will happen in the future; rather He ordains it. The Bible clearly teaches that God sovereignly chooses people to believe in Him.”MacArthur Study Series (Chariot Victor Books, 1992), p 58.

Here are some Covenant/Reformed/Calvinist teachings:

If you are a "true Christian" God will prevent you from sinning or Backsliding Because you made Jesus Lord-lordship salvation

One will remain in the faith because God has sovereignly chose before hand who is to be saved, Hence the elected cannot lose their salvation, And if they do fall away it is proof the were not saved or chosen in the first place-Calvinism

A person does possess human freedom before regeneration but after regeneration, one is unable to commit willful or fall away in this new regenerated state- Monergism

Are we in control of what we choose? Are we are in control of what we do regardless if Jesus is our Savior and lord, That remaining in the faith is our responsibility as free moral agents?

Sorry, I know this is a bit long

Man is in control!

With that control man can submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

But still man has the final say in all of his decisions.

But in past discussions I think Ed does NOT believe that, but thinks that God controls everything including all of our actions. Now he will not say that as clearly as I have said it, but the bottom line is that is what he believes. Of course he is allowed to speak for himself.

[victoryword]

Calvinism has no basis in Scripture. Choice is stated in so many places in the BIble that it leaves me scratching my head wondering how someone who claims to believe the BIble and claims to be some great Biblical exegete can actually espouse the doctrines of Calvinism:

And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. (Luke 7:29-30)

God did not choose nor did He ordain the rejection of the Pharisees. God provided the counsel, they rejected it, and the BIble says that decisions that against God are really decisions against yourself. Jesus came to save and deliver us and give us victory over satan and his kingdom. When you reject God's offer of victory-salvation you are going against your own self. God cannot be blamed or held responsible for it.

I'd hate to be a proponent of Calvinism on the day of judgment.

[Justaned]

Hyper grace is being addressed in other threads so I want to address other false theologies that are just as bad as hyper grace. Now As this pertains to someone backsliding or sinning willfully. I ask, as believers who is in control of our decisions on weather we remain a believer or not?
To start things off here is a quote from John MacArthur:

MacArthur: It’s not that He [God] merely sees what will happen in the future; rather He ordains it. The Bible clearly teaches that God sovereignly chooses people to believe in Him.”MacArthur Study Series (Chariot Victor Books, 1992), p 58.

Here are some Covenant/Reformed/Calvinist teachings:

If you are a "true Christian" God will prevent you from sinning or Backsliding Because you made Jesus Lord-lordship salvation

One will remain in the faith because God has sovereignly chose before hand who is to be saved, Hence the elected cannot lose their salvation, And if they do fall away it is proof the were not saved or chosen in the first place-Calvinism

A person does possess human freedom before regeneration but after regeneration, one is unable to commit willful or fall away in this new regenerated state- Monergism

Are we in control of what we choose? Are we are in control of what we do regardless if Jesus is our Savior and lord, That remaining in the faith is our responsibility as free moral agents?

Sorry, I know this is a bit long

Man is in control!

With that control man can submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

But still man has the final say in all of his decisions.

But in past discussions I think Ed does NOT believe that, but thinks that God controls everything including all of our actions. Now he will not say that as clearly as I have said it, but the bottom line is that is what he believes. Of course he is allowed to speak for himself.

Okay let me clearly say it
Man is control of his decisions.
Man has a choice to make Jesus Lord of his life or not.
Man has the final say in all of his decisions.

There is that clear enough?

I never believed God controls our actions, but I do believe God's will accomplish His will irregardless of our decisions.

Thank you for allowing me to speak for myself but I doubt it will do much good because the next time someone doesn't like what I say instead of providing evidence to the contrary they will act me personally suggesting all kinds of nonsense about me.

[Rocky]

Calvinism has no basis in Scripture. Choice is stated in so many places in the BIble that it leaves me scratching my head wondering how someone who claims to believe the BIble and claims to be some great Biblical exegete can actually espouse the doctrines of Calvinism:

And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John. But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him. (Luke 7:29-30)

God did not choose nor did He ordain the rejection of the Pharisees. God provided the counsel, they rejected it, and the BIble says that decisions that against God are really decisions against yourself. Jesus came to save and deliver us and give us victory over satan and his kingdom. When you reject God's offer of victory-salvation you are going against your own self. God cannot be blamed or held responsible for it.

I'd hate to be a proponent of Calvinism on the day of judgment.

I have always wonderd what the agenda is with Reform theology..

[Rocky]

Hello Ed this is not a pick on Ed thread. I believe you are a very smart guy and a man of integrity. I just want to bring these theologies out in the open, and move the Lordship theology thread here because the discussion turned into a free will debate. Here is one of your quotes

If Jesus is in fact Lord in your Life you won't sin. A true Christian will not commit willful sin.
If a Christian willfully sins he did not make Jesus the Lord of his life

Ed these statements of yours falls under at least 2 if not all three of the Calvinistic theologies that I mentioned above, does it Not? So in essence to me you are saying that the Christian is prevented from sinning, hence the free will is striped away, and this is just a flirtation with Reformed theology or in all out love affair with it.

[Justaned]

Hello Ed this is not a pick on Ed thread. I believe you are a very smart guy and a man of integrity. I just want to bring these theologies out in the open, and move the Lordship theology thread here because the discussion turned into a free will debate. Here is one of your quotes

If Jesus is in fact Lord in your Life you won't sin. A true Christian will not commit willful sin.
If a Christian willfully sins he did not make Jesus the Lord of his life

Ed these statements of yours falls under at least 2 if not all three of the Calvinistic theologies that I mentioned above, does it Not? So in essence to me you are saying that the Christian is prevented from sinning, hence the free will is striped away, and this is just a flirtation with Reformed theology or in all out love affair with it.

How So? There is absolutely nothing Calvinistic in this except what you are reading into it. Read what I said not what you think I said. I never said or implied an external prevention to sinning as such. I said if a Christian truly has made Jesus Lord of his life he will not sin intentionally or willfully.

What is grinding at you is when I say a true Christian who has made Jesus Lord of their life can't willfully sin.
Why because they don't entertain the idea to begin with.
Again I say when someone willfully sins they never made Jesus Lord of their life. I don't believe they were really saved.

Oh they met all the qualifications for easy believism, in that they believed in Jesus. But the word the Greek word Pisteuo from what we get our word believe means far more than an academic knowledge of Jesus or the acceptance that He lived, was crucified, resurrected, you must become dependent on Jesus. In other words nothing you do is independent to Jesus. You are a follower not leader of Jesus.

Until sin is put out of your life you really aren't saved. You may want to be, you made think you are but if willful and deliberate sin is still a part of your life you are not truly saved.

[Rocky]

Hello Ed this is not a pick on Ed thread. I believe you are a very smart guy and a man of integrity. I just want to bring these theologies out in the open, and move the Lordship theology thread here because the discussion turned into a free will debate. Here is one of your quotes

If Jesus is in fact Lord in your Life you won't sin. A true Christian will not commit willful sin.
If a Christian willfully sins he did not make Jesus the Lord of his life

Ed these statements of yours falls under at least 2 if not all three of the Calvinistic theologies that I mentioned above, does it Not? So in essence to me you are saying that the Christian is prevented from sinning, hence the free will is striped away, and this is just a flirtation with Reformed theology or in all out love affair with it.

How So? There is absolutely nothing Calvinistic in this except what you are reading into it. Read what I said not what you think I said. I never said or implied an external prevention to sinning as such. I said if a Christian truly has made Jesus Lord of his life he will not sin intentionally or willfully.

What is grinding at you is when I say a true Christian who has made Jesus Lord of their life can't willfully sin.
Why because they don't entertain the idea to begin with.
Again I say when someone willfully sins they never made Jesus Lord of their life. I don't believe they were really saved.

Oh they met all the qualifications for easy believism, in that they believed in Jesus. But the word the Greek word Pisteuo from what we get our word believe means far more than an academic knowledge of Jesus or the acceptance that He lived, was crucified, resurrected, you must become dependent on Jesus. In other words nothing you do is independent to Jesus. You are a follower not leader of Jesus.

Until sin is put out of your life you really aren't saved. You may want to be, you made think you are but if willful and deliberate sin is still a part of your life you are not truly saved.

Ed I am not advocating sin for the hundredth time. I say the Christian can willfully sin and backslide through his own free will. You say this is not the case. And now you are saying that I don't understand holiness because I don't agree with your reformed theology thinking? Ok I will not add anything here look at your own statements that you just made

I say a true Christian who has made Jesus Lord of their life can't willfully sin.
Again I say when someone willfully sins they never made Jesus Lord of their life. I don't believe they were really saved.
I said if a Christian truly has made Jesus Lord of his life he will not sin intentionally or willfully.

Again I say Ed these statements of yours falls under at least 2 if not all three of the Calvinistic theologies that I mentioned above. This is a fact according to your statements here.

[Justaned]

Hello Ed this is not a pick on Ed thread. I believe you are a very smart guy and a man of integrity. I just want to bring these theologies out in the open, and move the Lordship theology thread here because the discussion turned into a free will debate. Here is one of your quotes

If Jesus is in fact Lord in your Life you won't sin. A true Christian will not commit willful sin.
If a Christian willfully sins he did not make Jesus the Lord of his life

Ed these statements of yours falls under at least 2 if not all three of the Calvinistic theologies that I mentioned above, does it Not? So in essence to me you are saying that the Christian is prevented from sinning, hence the free will is striped away, and this is just a flirtation with Reformed theology or in all out love affair with it.

How So? There is absolutely nothing Calvinistic in this except what you are reading into it. Read what I said not what you think I said. I never said or implied an external prevention to sinning as such. I said if a Christian truly has made Jesus Lord of his life he will not sin intentionally or willfully.

What is grinding at you is when I say a true Christian who has made Jesus Lord of their life can't willfully sin.
Why because they don't entertain the idea to begin with.
Again I say when someone willfully sins they never made Jesus Lord of their life. I don't believe they were really saved.

Oh they met all the qualifications for easy believism, in that they believed in Jesus. But the word the Greek word Pisteuo from what we get our word believe means far more than an academic knowledge of Jesus or the acceptance that He lived, was crucified, resurrected, you must become dependent on Jesus. In other words nothing you do is independent to Jesus. You are a follower not leader of Jesus.

Until sin is put out of your life you really aren't saved. You may want to be, you made think you are but if willful and deliberate sin is still a part of your life you are not truly saved.

Ed I am not advocating sin for the hundredth time. I say the Christian can willfully sin and backslide through his own free will. You say this is not the case. And now you are saying that I don't understand holiness because I don't agree with your reformed theology thinking?

All I'm saying is you can't be a true Christian and willfully and deliberately sin. You are either a deliberate sinner or a Christian you can't be both. That is not any theology other than the words of Jesus. You either love Jesus or you hate him.

I stand on the my words.

if a Christian truly has made Jesus Lord of his life he will not sin intentionally or willfully

It can't happen. I also can't help that you don't like that fact. But it is not some odd theology it is the truth of the gospel.

[bibleman]

Hyper grace is being addressed in other threads so I want to address other false theologies that are just as bad as hyper grace. Now As this pertains to someone backsliding or sinning willfully. I ask, as believers who is in control of our decisions on weather we remain a believer or not?
To start things off here is a quote from John MacArthur:

MacArthur: It’s not that He [God] merely sees what will happen in the future; rather He ordains it. The Bible clearly teaches that God sovereignly chooses people to believe in Him.”MacArthur Study Series (Chariot Victor Books, 1992), p 58.

Here are some Covenant/Reformed/Calvinist teachings:

If you are a "true Christian" God will prevent you from sinning or Backsliding Because you made Jesus Lord-lordship salvation

One will remain in the faith because God has sovereignly chose before hand who is to be saved, Hence the elected cannot lose their salvation, And if they do fall away it is proof the were not saved or chosen in the first place-Calvinism

A person does possess human freedom before regeneration but after regeneration, one is unable to commit willful or fall away in this new regenerated state- Monergism

Are we in control of what we choose? Are we are in control of what we do regardless if Jesus is our Savior and lord, That remaining in the faith is our responsibility as free moral agents?

Sorry, I know this is a bit long

Man is in control!

With that control man can submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

But still man has the final say in all of his decisions.

But in past discussions I think Ed does NOT believe that, but thinks that God controls everything including all of our actions. Now he will not say that as clearly as I have said it, but the bottom line is that is what he believes. Of course he is allowed to speak for himself.

Okay let me clearly say it
Man is control of his decisions.
Man has a choice to make Jesus Lord of his life or not.
Man has the final say in all of his decisions.

There is that clear enough?

I never believed God controls our actions, but I do believe God's will accomplish His will irregardless of our decisions.

Thank you for allowing me to speak for myself but I doubt it will do much good because the next time someone doesn't like what I say instead of providing evidence to the contrary they will act me personally suggesting all kinds of nonsense about me.

Thanks Ed,

That was very clear!