Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Thought Provoking OSAS

[Justaned]

ONENESS PENTECOSTALS are not jdubs or mormons!!!!!

if you think they are heaven help you.

Billy
I didn't mean to imply oneness was the same as mormons or Jw. My point is every religion every theology, every cult believes they are correct or they would not be that religion, hold that theology, or be in that cult.

Many times Christians and WOF'er in particular proudly beat their chest and say using scripture they can shoot down any one that disagrees with them.

That is totally nonsense.

Case in point brilliant,skilled and gifted men, equally faithful, equally spiritual, equally dedicated to the truth have argued OSAS for over 500 years. Neither side has been able to produce convincing truth to disprove the other or to prove their position.

What they can do is shoot down any theology using scripture if everyone is using the same interpretation of scripture they are. But the minute another man decides his interpretation is superior to theirs all discussion stops.

When I was WOF I would have gone to the stake defending the theology. Today I see where I was deceived and mistaken and actually hate WOF theology. What changed? One thing as far as I can determine. That one thing is how I interpret the scriptures I once used to justify WOF theology.

Hi Ed,

Above you said: "When I was WOF I would have gone to the stake defending the theology. Today I see where I was deceived and mistaken and actually hate WOF theology. What changed? One thing as far as I can determine. That one thing is how I interpret the scriptures I once used to justify WOF theology."

I think I see your problem, you "interpret the Scriptures."

You should not do that, BUT - simply believe what is written without adding yours or others interpretations.

Yeah Bibleman we have been there and plowed that field and if you remember correctly Scott showed you where even Dake talked about Bible interpretation and the need to do it correctly.
So while I hear you, everyone knows the process of reading something off a page and sending what the eyes read to their brain and then processing that information into meaningful thoughts requires interpretation. And everyone has a filter through which that information passes. It then depends on how the filter is wired that will determine how the brain will interpret the information. If your filter is anti OSAS it will read to you as proof against OSAS however if the brain is wired to think OSAS is correct it will read to you as proof for OSAS.

That is a fact of life you can deny that all you want but you can't change that fact.

[branham1965]

THE PERSON WHO AFFIRMS SUCH A PROPOSITION IS AFFIRMING THEY OR THEIR TEACHER ARE NOT merely reverently INTERPRETING THE HOLY SCRIPTURES as all honest hearted scholars do but RATHER THEY ARE PERFECTLY SPEAKING AND GIVING WHAT THE BIBLE really SAYS.

SUCH A BOLD PRESUMPTION DEFIES THE HOLY SPIRITS TEACHING IN JAMES 3:1-2 AND THE TEACHING BY GOD THAT UNTIL THE LORD JESUS COMES WE KNOW ONLY .... IN PART... IN PART....IN PART... NOT IN FULL.WE TODAY SEE THROUGH A GLASS DARKLY....NOT PERFECT UNDERSTANDING BUT ONLY IN PART.1 CORINTHIANS 13.

WHO HAS THE AUTHORITY TO SAY OTHERWISE????

NO ONE HAS EVER KNOWN ALL THE WORD OF GOD SAVE THE LIVING WORD HIMSELF JESUS.
WHEN THE PERFECT COMES THEN WE SHALL SEE HIM AS HE IS 1 JOHN 3;1 COR 15.

THIS WILLNEVER BE RESOLVED ON HERE.

ONENESS PENTECOSTALS are not jdubs or mormons!!!!!

if you think they are heaven help you.

Billy
I didn't mean to imply oneness was the same as mormons or Jw. My point is every religion every theology, every cult believes they are correct or they would not be that religion, hold that theology, or be in that cult.

Many times Christians and WOF'er in particular proudly beat their chest and say using scripture they can shoot down any one that disagrees with them.

That is totally nonsense.

Case in point brilliant,skilled and gifted men, equally faithful, equally spiritual, equally dedicated to the truth have argued OSAS for over 500 years. Neither side has been able to produce convincing truth to disprove the other or to prove their position.

What they can do is shoot down any theology using scripture if everyone is using the same interpretation of scripture they are. But the minute another man decides his interpretation is superior to theirs all discussion stops.

When I was WOF I would have gone to the stake defending the theology. Today I see where I was deceived and mistaken and actually hate WOF theology. What changed? One thing as far as I can determine. That one thing is how I interpret the scriptures I once used to justify WOF theology.

Hi Ed,

Above you said: "When I was WOF I would have gone to the stake defending the theology. Today I see where I was deceived and mistaken and actually hate WOF theology. What changed? One thing as far as I can determine. That one thing is how I interpret the scriptures I once used to justify WOF theology."

I think I see your problem, you "interpret the Scriptures."

You should not do that, BUT - simply believe what is written without adding yours or others interpretations.

[bibleman]

ONENESS PENTECOSTALS are not jdubs or mormons!!!!!

if you think they are heaven help you.

Billy
I didn't mean to imply oneness was the same as mormons or Jw. My point is every religion every theology, every cult believes they are correct or they would not be that religion, hold that theology, or be in that cult.

Many times Christians and WOF'er in particular proudly beat their chest and say using scripture they can shoot down any one that disagrees with them.

That is totally nonsense.

Case in point brilliant,skilled and gifted men, equally faithful, equally spiritual, equally dedicated to the truth have argued OSAS for over 500 years. Neither side has been able to produce convincing truth to disprove the other or to prove their position.

What they can do is shoot down any theology using scripture if everyone is using the same interpretation of scripture they are. But the minute another man decides his interpretation is superior to theirs all discussion stops.

When I was WOF I would have gone to the stake defending the theology. Today I see where I was deceived and mistaken and actually hate WOF theology. What changed? One thing as far as I can determine. That one thing is how I interpret the scriptures I once used to justify WOF theology.

Hi Ed,

Above you said: "When I was WOF I would have gone to the stake defending the theology. Today I see where I was deceived and mistaken and actually hate WOF theology. What changed? One thing as far as I can determine. That one thing is how I interpret the scriptures I once used to justify WOF theology."

I think I see your problem, you "interpret the Scriptures."

You should not do that, BUT - simply believe what is written without adding yours or others interpretations.

Yeah Bibleman we have been there and plowed that field and if you remember correctly Scott showed you where even Dake talked about Bible interpretation and the need to do it correctly.
So while I hear you, everyone knows the process of reading something off a page and sending what the eyes read to their brain and then processing that information into meaningful thoughts requires interpretation. And everyone has a filter through which that information passes. It then depends on how the filter is wired that will determine how the brain will interpret the information. If your filter is anti OSAS it will read to you as proof against OSAS however if the brain is wired to think OSAS is correct it will read to you as proof for OSAS.

That is a fact of life you can deny that all you want but you can't change that fact.

Hi Ed,

Dake said he did NOT have in interpretation of the Bible: http://www.dakebibleboard.com/download/ ... tation.mp3

Do you disagree with Dake?

[Rocky]

ONENESS PENTECOSTALS are not jdubs or mormons!!!!!

if you think they are heaven help you.

Billy
I didn't mean to imply oneness was the same as mormons or Jw. My point is every religion every theology, every cult believes they are correct or they would not be that religion, hold that theology, or be in that cult.

Many times Christians and WOF'er in particular proudly beat their chest and say using scripture they can shoot down any one that disagrees with them.

That is totally nonsense.

Case in point brilliant,skilled and gifted men, equally faithful, equally spiritual, equally dedicated to the truth have argued OSAS for over 500 years. Neither side has been able to produce convincing truth to disprove the other or to prove their position.

What they can do is shoot down any theology using scripture if everyone is using the same interpretation of scripture they are. But the minute another man decides his interpretation is superior to theirs all discussion stops.

When I was WOF I would have gone to the stake defending the theology. Today I see where I was deceived and mistaken and actually hate WOF theology. What changed? One thing as far as I can determine. That one thing is how I interpret the scriptures I once used to justify WOF theology.

Hi Ed,

Above you said: "When I was WOF I would have gone to the stake defending the theology. Today I see where I was deceived and mistaken and actually hate WOF theology. What changed? One thing as far as I can determine. That one thing is how I interpret the scriptures I once used to justify WOF theology."

I think I see your problem, you "interpret the Scriptures."

You should not do that, BUT - simply believe what is written without adding yours or others interpretations.

Yeah Bibleman we have been there and plowed that field and if you remember correctly Scott showed you where even Dake talked about Bible interpretation and the need to do it correctly.
So while I hear you, everyone knows the process of reading something off a page and sending what the eyes read to their brain and then processing that information into meaningful thoughts requires interpretation. And everyone has a filter through which that information passes. It then depends on how the filter is wired that will determine how the brain will interpret the information. If your filter is anti OSAS it will read to you as proof against OSAS however if the brain is wired to think OSAS is correct it will read to you as proof for OSAS.

That is a fact of life you can deny that all you want but you can't change that fact.

Ed, There is truth and untruth regardless of filtering. This just seem like a lot of psycho babble to me. OSAS is untruth regardless who is interpreting it. Not one scripture in the entire bible states that one can live in sin and stay saved, its not rocket science, you can apply this to any unbiblical theology. You are ruling out Discernment and the Holy Spirit here with this this Psychology. Actually I believe with this way of thinking you are actually opening the door to false doctrine or what the bible calls doctrine of demons. Satan can be a bible teacher as well Ed.

[Justaned]

ONENESS PENTECOSTALS are not jdubs or mormons!!!!!

if you think they are heaven help you.

Billy
I didn't mean to imply oneness was the same as mormons or Jw. My point is every religion every theology, every cult believes they are correct or they would not be that religion, hold that theology, or be in that cult.

Many times Christians and WOF'er in particular proudly beat their chest and say using scripture they can shoot down any one that disagrees with them.

That is totally nonsense.

Case in point brilliant,skilled and gifted men, equally faithful, equally spiritual, equally dedicated to the truth have argued OSAS for over 500 years. Neither side has been able to produce convincing truth to disprove the other or to prove their position.

What they can do is shoot down any theology using scripture if everyone is using the same interpretation of scripture they are. But the minute another man decides his interpretation is superior to theirs all discussion stops.

When I was WOF I would have gone to the stake defending the theology. Today I see where I was deceived and mistaken and actually hate WOF theology. What changed? One thing as far as I can determine. That one thing is how I interpret the scriptures I once used to justify WOF theology.

Hi Ed,

Above you said: "When I was WOF I would have gone to the stake defending the theology. Today I see where I was deceived and mistaken and actually hate WOF theology. What changed? One thing as far as I can determine. That one thing is how I interpret the scriptures I once used to justify WOF theology."

I think I see your problem, you "interpret the Scriptures."

You should not do that, BUT - simply believe what is written without adding yours or others interpretations.

Yeah Bibleman we have been there and plowed that field and if you remember correctly Scott showed you where even Dake talked about Bible interpretation and the need to do it correctly.
So while I hear you, everyone knows the process of reading something off a page and sending what the eyes read to their brain and then processing that information into meaningful thoughts requires interpretation. And everyone has a filter through which that information passes. It then depends on how the filter is wired that will determine how the brain will interpret the information. If your filter is anti OSAS it will read to you as proof against OSAS however if the brain is wired to think OSAS is correct it will read to you as proof for OSAS.

That is a fact of life you can deny that all you want but you can't change that fact.

Hi Ed,

Dake said he did NOT have in interpretation of the Bible: http://www.dakebibleboard.com/download/ ... tation.mp3

Do you disagree with Dake?

I don't know what Dake said on the mp3 as I didn't listen but I do know the last time or the time before that when we plowed this field Scott produced a quote of Dake's about interpretation.

Further if any one says they aren't using interpretation when they are reading the Bible they simply don't understand how the brain forms meanings of words sent to it by the optic nerve. It is well know fact that in a test you and I would focus on importance of words differently. Example the little test where they give you a paragraph and ask how my "I,s" do you see in the paragraph. Some people the correct number and others don't. The reason one or two of the 'I's" are part of the word "if". Some people's minds simply skip of the word others see each word and assign equal importance to it. That is fact, that is how our mind works. There is no point in denying that.

Likewise if someone has an OSAS viewpoint when they read scripture they used that filter and eventually they will be convinced scripture supports OSAS. Likewise if someone has a Pentecostal viewpoint they read scripture with that filter and eventually they will be convinced scripture supports Pentecostalism.

It is only when someone says I may be wrong, I want to see scripture as it is written not as I think it is written will they only begin to see the differences. This is where the Holy Spirit comes into play once you read something and can fully see where one reading of scripture supports a viewpoint and also a counter view point are you able to go to the Holy Spirit and say settle this in me. Every time I have come to that point I get one loud and clear message. Those are man made concepts of God's truth and as such are meaningless.

When it is all said and done I usually walk away saying OSAS, Pentecostalism, and all the rest of the doctrines and theologies that divide us is not what is important to God. They are distractions that Satan has placed before us to keep the body of Christ out of unity and to keep us arguing with each other rather than being the witness of Jesus we are called to be.

Think about it if we all threw down all our pet doctrines, pet beliefs, pet theologies and came together to serve God as we are called to do, what do you think would happen? Do you think Islam would stand a chance? Would Mormonism stand a chance? Would there be any Jehovah Witnesses? I think the answer to all of this would be no way.

But as long as man believes he is capable of interpreting scripture to believe as he chooses this will never happen.

[Justaned]

Ed, There is truth and untruth regardless of filtering. This just seem like a lot of psycho babble to me. OSAS is untruth regardless who is interpreting it. Not one scripture in the entire bible states that one can live in sin and stay saved, its not rocket science, you can apply this to any unbiblical theology. You are ruling out Discernment and the Holy Spirit here with this this Psychology. Actually I believe with this way of thinking you are actually opening the door to false doctrine or what the bible calls doctrine of demons. Satan can be a bible teacher as well Ed.

You are right there is truth and untruth and it is in scripture. Show me one place that OSAS is even mentioned in scripture. It isn't it is a term invented by man to name a doctrine invented by man. However the antithesis of OSAS is also not in scripture. In fact scripture never considers the issue only man does.

Further more no serious OSAS person suggests you can live in sin. That is simply not in the doctrine. It is however the way non OSAS view OSAS doctrine.

My point is Jesus died for our sins. If we love Jesus we will obey his commands. God has called us to holiness and we are to strive to be as holy as we can be. That is not OSAS nor is it anti OSAS it is simply the message of the scripture.

What we have allowed to happen is for Satan to place theology, theories and doctrines in our minds that we focus on instead of what is important. We fight can I do this and still be saved? Well what about this can I do this and still be saved?

That isn't the question God wants us to ask. God wants us to turn from sin and be holy, to always obey Jesus and allow our sins to be forgiven by Jesus. To do any less is not being a genuine Christian it is being what we as humans have deemed non OSAS or OSAS.

[bibleman]

ONENESS PENTECOSTALS are not jdubs or mormons!!!!!

if you think they are heaven help you.

Billy
I didn't mean to imply oneness was the same as mormons or Jw. My point is every religion every theology, every cult believes they are correct or they would not be that religion, hold that theology, or be in that cult.

Many times Christians and WOF'er in particular proudly beat their chest and say using scripture they can shoot down any one that disagrees with them.

That is totally nonsense.

Case in point brilliant,skilled and gifted men, equally faithful, equally spiritual, equally dedicated to the truth have argued OSAS for over 500 years. Neither side has been able to produce convincing truth to disprove the other or to prove their position.

What they can do is shoot down any theology using scripture if everyone is using the same interpretation of scripture they are. But the minute another man decides his interpretation is superior to theirs all discussion stops.

When I was WOF I would have gone to the stake defending the theology. Today I see where I was deceived and mistaken and actually hate WOF theology. What changed? One thing as far as I can determine. That one thing is how I interpret the scriptures I once used to justify WOF theology.

Hi Ed,

Above you said: "When I was WOF I would have gone to the stake defending the theology. Today I see where I was deceived and mistaken and actually hate WOF theology. What changed? One thing as far as I can determine. That one thing is how I interpret the scriptures I once used to justify WOF theology."

I think I see your problem, you "interpret the Scriptures."

You should not do that, BUT - simply believe what is written without adding yours or others interpretations.

Yeah Bibleman we have been there and plowed that field and if you remember correctly Scott showed you where even Dake talked about Bible interpretation and the need to do it correctly.
So while I hear you, everyone knows the process of reading something off a page and sending what the eyes read to their brain and then processing that information into meaningful thoughts requires interpretation. And everyone has a filter through which that information passes. It then depends on how the filter is wired that will determine how the brain will interpret the information. If your filter is anti OSAS it will read to you as proof against OSAS however if the brain is wired to think OSAS is correct it will read to you as proof for OSAS.

That is a fact of life you can deny that all you want but you can't change that fact.

Hi Ed,

Dake said he did NOT have in interpretation of the Bible: http://www.dakebibleboard.com/download/ ... tation.mp3

Do you disagree with Dake?

I don't know what Dake said on the mp3 as I didn't listen but I do know the last time or the time before that when we plowed this field Scott produced a quote of Dake's about interpretation.

Further if any one says they aren't using interpretation when they are reading the Bible they simply don't understand how the brain forms meanings of words sent to it by the optic nerve. It is well know fact that in a test you and I would focus on importance of words differently. Example the little test where they give you a paragraph and ask how my "I,s" do you see in the paragraph. Some people the correct number and others don't. The reason one or two of the 'I's" are part of the word "if". Some people's minds simply skip of the word others see each word and assign equal importance to it. That is fact, that is how our mind works. There is no point in denying that.

Likewise if someone has an OSAS viewpoint when they read scripture they used that filter and eventually they will be convinced scripture supports OSAS. Likewise if someone has a Pentecostal viewpoint they read scripture with that filter and eventually they will be convinced scripture supports Pentecostalism.

It is only when someone says I may be wrong, I want to see scripture as it is written not as I think it is written will they only begin to see the differences. This is where the Holy Spirit comes into play once you read something and can fully see where one reading of scripture supports a viewpoint and also a counter view point are you able to go to the Holy Spirit and say settle this in me. Every time I have come to that point I get one loud and clear message. Those are man made concepts of God's truth and as such are meaningless.

When it is all said and done I usually walk away saying OSAS, Pentecostalism, and all the rest of the doctrines and theologies that divide us is not what is important to God. They are distractions that Satan has placed before us to keep the body of Christ out of unity and to keep us arguing with each other rather than being the witness of Jesus we are called to be.

Think about it if we all threw down all our pet doctrines, pet beliefs, pet theologies and came together to serve God as we are called to do, what do you think would happen? Do you think Islam would stand a chance? Would Mormonism stand a chance? Would there be any Jehovah Witnesses? I think the answer to all of this would be no way.

But as long as man believes he is capable of interpreting scripture to believe as he chooses this will never happen.

Hi Ed,

Well, if you didn't listen (takes about 1.5 minutes) then you would be speaking in ignorance, so how can you communicate with someone who refuses to hear?

This is one of the reasons that you are so frustrated - see below!

Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

[Justaned]

ONENESS PENTECOSTALS are not jdubs or mormons!!!!!

if you think they are heaven help you.

Billy
I didn't mean to imply oneness was the same as mormons or Jw. My point is every religion every theology, every cult believes they are correct or they would not be that religion, hold that theology, or be in that cult.

Many times Christians and WOF'er in particular proudly beat their chest and say using scripture they can shoot down any one that disagrees with them.

That is totally nonsense.

Case in point brilliant,skilled and gifted men, equally faithful, equally spiritual, equally dedicated to the truth have argued OSAS for over 500 years. Neither side has been able to produce convincing truth to disprove the other or to prove their position.

What they can do is shoot down any theology using scripture if everyone is using the same interpretation of scripture they are. But the minute another man decides his interpretation is superior to theirs all discussion stops.

When I was WOF I would have gone to the stake defending the theology. Today I see where I was deceived and mistaken and actually hate WOF theology. What changed? One thing as far as I can determine. That one thing is how I interpret the scriptures I once used to justify WOF theology.

Hi Ed,

Above you said: "When I was WOF I would have gone to the stake defending the theology. Today I see where I was deceived and mistaken and actually hate WOF theology. What changed? One thing as far as I can determine. That one thing is how I interpret the scriptures I once used to justify WOF theology."

I think I see your problem, you "interpret the Scriptures."

You should not do that, BUT - simply believe what is written without adding yours or others interpretations.

Yeah Bibleman we have been there and plowed that field and if you remember correctly Scott showed you where even Dake talked about Bible interpretation and the need to do it correctly.
So while I hear you, everyone knows the process of reading something off a page and sending what the eyes read to their brain and then processing that information into meaningful thoughts requires interpretation. And everyone has a filter through which that information passes. It then depends on how the filter is wired that will determine how the brain will interpret the information. If your filter is anti OSAS it will read to you as proof against OSAS however if the brain is wired to think OSAS is correct it will read to you as proof for OSAS.

That is a fact of life you can deny that all you want but you can't change that fact.

Hi Ed,

Dake said he did NOT have in interpretation of the Bible: http://www.dakebibleboard.com/download/ ... tation.mp3

Do you disagree with Dake?

I don't know what Dake said on the mp3 as I didn't listen but I do know the last time or the time before that when we plowed this field Scott produced a quote of Dake's about interpretation.

Further if any one says they aren't using interpretation when they are reading the Bible they simply don't understand how the brain forms meanings of words sent to it by the optic nerve. It is well know fact that in a test you and I would focus on importance of words differently. Example the little test where they give you a paragraph and ask how my "I,s" do you see in the paragraph. Some people the correct number and others don't. The reason one or two of the 'I's" are part of the word "if". Some people's minds simply skip of the word others see each word and assign equal importance to it. That is fact, that is how our mind works. There is no point in denying that.

Likewise if someone has an OSAS viewpoint when they read scripture they used that filter and eventually they will be convinced scripture supports OSAS. Likewise if someone has a Pentecostal viewpoint they read scripture with that filter and eventually they will be convinced scripture supports Pentecostalism.

It is only when someone says I may be wrong, I want to see scripture as it is written not as I think it is written will they only begin to see the differences. This is where the Holy Spirit comes into play once you read something and can fully see where one reading of scripture supports a viewpoint and also a counter view point are you able to go to the Holy Spirit and say settle this in me. Every time I have come to that point I get one loud and clear message. Those are man made concepts of God's truth and as such are meaningless.

When it is all said and done I usually walk away saying OSAS, Pentecostalism, and all the rest of the doctrines and theologies that divide us is not what is important to God. They are distractions that Satan has placed before us to keep the body of Christ out of unity and to keep us arguing with each other rather than being the witness of Jesus we are called to be.

Think about it if we all threw down all our pet doctrines, pet beliefs, pet theologies and came together to serve God as we are called to do, what do you think would happen? Do you think Islam would stand a chance? Would Mormonism stand a chance? Would there be any Jehovah Witnesses? I think the answer to all of this would be no way.

But as long as man believes he is capable of interpreting scripture to believe as he chooses this will never happen.

Hi Ed,

Well, if you didn't listen (takes about 1.5 minutes) then you would be speaking in ignorance, so how can you communicate with someone who refuses to hear?

This is one of the reasons that you are so frustrated - see below!

Acts 28:27 For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.

If someone denies interpretation then they aren't worth listening to.
We interpret everything we encounter in life even what we read, to deny that is to deny fact.

Okay I listened and Dake didn't say much other than read your bible. I agree. However the fact remains we must interpret what we read and how we interpret what we have read determines what we think we read. That is not always the same as what the scriptures actually said. We must determine is this meant to be literal or was it a figure of speech, if it was literal was it for a certain people group or certain time or condition or was it universal to all people and all times and all situations. We must determine if it was rhetorical or a statement of fact. How it was conditioned and how do we apply it to our lives and situations. It all must be processed through our mind and our beliefs color that process. That is fact.

[Reuben]

its the sacraments that's saves

As I continue to look over what you said; I'm seeing that it boils down to this. Their faith is in something other than Jesus Christ. Here again the question must be posed - How is a person saved who truly believes in and follows the Catholic teaching?

Again I find myself defending something I have no desire to defend. Is their faith in sacraments or is it in things Jesus ordained both in scripture and through the disciples and in which they believe Jesus is manifested in? For instance Catholics believe Christ manifests Himself in the sacrament of communion.

No serious Catholic believes in salvation apart from Jesus Christ. I'm not talking of people that have sat down and discussed Catholicism with their father I'm talking of the Priests, theologians and those that took Catechism to learn and grow in Christ.

May I suggest that instead of seeking information from a disgruntled ex Catholic, if you really want to know, sit down and take the time to read the Catholic Catechism. By taking time I mean go to each scripture they reference and study it until you understand how the Catholics have come to the conclusion they have. I don't mean you have to agree with it, but you need to understand what they see in scripture that leads them to their belief.

I know many Catholics that claim salvation through being born again in Christ, they will further testify that did not come by chance but through the teaching they received within the Catholic church.

Again do I think Catholicism is the answer? NO! If I did I would be less than honest with myself if I did not become Catholic, would I not? And I'm not defending their religion of which I only know from second hand experience and an indepth reading of their theology, but I do know what many claim to be Catholicism is something strained and stained by the filter of Protestantism.

I read through the Catechism - I said I use it in refuting some of their own arguments. I have not sat down with disgruntled Catholics - they are ones who are quite satisfied with their religion. One who was an ex-catholic who came to our church and was a part of it simply shared with me their beliefs and of the tragic encounters his devout parents had when their other son died. Again, you are missing the point - the people of the Catholic faith are the product of their teaching.

I don't know how a Catholic can be saved if he/she adheres to Catholicism.

Thank God for Luther! If the Catholics believed in Justification by Faith then why did Luther have to refute the Catholic church on its stance? They saw Luther as a threat to their money making scam! If you have any degree of knowledge of the Reformation - you know this was the bottom line. Ignorance kept the people in bondage and enslaved it's adherents financially to the church making it a fat-cat enterprise. I am thankful I'm not Catholic but a born-again Christian!

[Reuben]

No serious Catholic believes in salvation apart from Jesus Christ. I'm not talking of people that have sat down and discussed Catholicism with their father I'm talking of the Priests, theologians and those that took Catechism to learn and grow in Christ.

How many priests do you know and have discussed this with? Or, theologians or serious Catholics? Are you implying that Rocky's father was not a serious Catholic? Or, that one of my best friends when growing up - and his parents were not either? Or, the couple that i grew very close to in our church and his family? Or, the priest that my brother had interesting conversations with?

Why is it Ed that you speak on subjects that you know little to nothing about attempting to sound as an authority and it becomes obvious to those who do?