Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Who is in control?

[Justaned]

Where did I say you are prevented from sinning?
Didn't I say Christians sin and if anyone denies he sins he is liar.
So what are you talking about?

Ed: If a believer has made the conscious decision to submit to Jesus' Lordship the his behavior and actions are controlled by Jesus.Therefore if we maintain that relationship our actions and behaviors are controlled by God.

Now I am no English major, But is not that what these statements are saying?
Ed please don't get offended, I believe I think I know the problem. The reason why you come across as double talking because you are adhering to a Calvinistic view of this(not the predestination aspect of Calvinism but the lack of free will aspect of Calvinism as it pertains to the Calvinistic doctrines of Monergism and Lordship salvation) while trying to mix it with and Arminian view of scripture. That's why you are having trouble harmonizing the scriptures, I been there bro. It stopped for me when I started using my MacArthur study bible as door stop instead of using it to learn and to understand the bible.

Any you are not theologian.
Are you want to discuss is labels. I'm not talking Calvinism, Armanianism, Monergism or its counter part Synergism

I'm talking 1 John 3:9 (NKJV)

9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Which is scripture pure and simple. No ism no nothing but God's truth. What does it say? Whoever has been born of God does not sin.
WHY?
Because His seed remains in him.
Whose seed the one that caused us to be born again and what happens?
He CANNOT SIN,
Why
Because he has been born of God.

Now call it what you want make is it a "ISM" but that is what the Word of God says.

If you have a complaint take it up with God.

[branham1965]

MAN TALK ABOUT BEATING A DEAD HORSE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

IM SICK OF READING THIS RUBBISH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

REVEREND DAKE TAUGHT ANYONE CAN SIN...SAVED PEOPLE CAN...LOST PEOPLE CAN....AND IF THEY COMMIT DEATH PENALTY SINS THEN THEY ARE ALL LOST AND MUST BE RENEWED AND RESTORED TO GOD.
HE GIVES PROFUSE SCRIPTURES TO PROVE HIS DOCTRINE.



BUT PEOPLEWISE IN THEIR OWN CONCEITS JUST BRAZENLY IGNORE WHAT HE TAUGHT AND JUST PLOW DEEPER INTO THE DEVILS BOWELS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Rocky]

Sorry for the label Ed, gosh calm down. sorry that I use the forbidden C word or any theological terms for that matter But remember you have been replying in a thread that was started with theological terms and definitions, how ironic. So Ed this is a thread about theology, But to appease your sensibilities from now on I will just call it "happy fun unicorn" And I wont even put a ism at the end of it so as not to offend you. If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck then it's an ostrich? So yeah, you are an adherent of happy fun unicorn, as taught by John Unicorn. But that's ok because unicorns are fun, you can ride them to the land of make believe. IF YOU SMELL WHAT THE ROCK IS COOKIN!!!

[Justaned]

Sorry for the label Ed, gosh calm down. sorry that I use the forbidden C word or any theological terms for that matter But remember you have been replying in a thread that was started with theological terms and definitions, how ironic. So Ed this is a thread about theology, But to appease your sensibilities from now on I will just call it "happy fun unicorn" And I wont even put a ism at the end of it so as not to offend you. If it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck then it's an ostrich? So yeah, you are an adherent of happy fun unicorn, as taught by John Unicorn. But that's ok because unicorns are fun, you can ride them to the land of make believe. IF YOU SMELL WHAT THE ROCK IS COOKIN!!!

Okay here is a typical post from Rocky in response to my post.
Notice it contains no rebuttal to my previous post, it offers no facts about the topic being discussed it is simple a tirade against me. Trying to belittling me, trying to mocking me, trying to invalidate what I said. Is this not exactly as this quote says?

"Marx and Engels never tried to refute their opponents with argument. They insulted, ridiculed, derided, slandered, and traduced them, and in the use of these methods their followers are not less expert. Their polemic is directed never against the argument of the opponent, but always against his person."

Now I have offered scripture

1 John 3:9 (NKJV)
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

This scripture is saying exactly what I am saying. So to rebut it the person rebutting needs to provide scripture that clearly states Christians intentionally and willfully sin and God is okay what that as long as they repent and repeat the cycle thus proving their free will.
Then he might want to consider

Hebrews 10:26 (NKJV)
26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

Is this hyperbole? No! Doesn't seem to be. Is that an analogy? No! There is no comparison that can be seen. Is it an Idiom? No again. So why doesn't it mean what it says? Because we don't want to face the facts? Could be.

I want to know two things.
Why isn't

1 John 3:9 (NKJV)
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

true?

And where in scripture does it give us doctrine on Backslidding where a Christian willfully and deliberately sins, says he is sorry, is restored to salvation, willfully and deliberately sins, says he is sorry, is restored to salvation. Over and over and depending where he dies be it in sin thus going to hell, or in repentance, half in hell half out and restores to salvation saved and going to heaven. Where is that doctrine laid out? Along with the doctrine on free will that is proven by Christians sinning just to show they can.

[Rocky]

Ed so now we are denying the fact that a Christian can backslide? Ed do you remember a few of us showing you this verse when you were claiming a Christian has a sin nature and does sin? You sure do change your positions a lot. We already talked about this verse 2 months ago, then you were saying a Christian does sin.

[Justaned]

Ed so now we are denying the fact that a Christian can backslide? Ed do you remember a few of us showing you this verse when you were claiming a Christian has a sin nature and does sin? You sure do change your positions a lot. We already talked about this verse 2 months ago, then you were saying a Christian does sin.

Once again no rebuttal just a personal attack

"Marx and Engels never tried to refute their opponents with argument. They insulted, ridiculed, derided, slandered, and traduced them, and in the use of these methods their followers are not less expert. Their polemic is directed never against the argument of the opponent, but always against his person."

1 John 3:9 (NKJV)
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Is on the table. Rebut it if you can it says Christians cannot sin.

[Rocky]

Ed so now we are denying the fact that a Christian can backslide? Ed do you remember a few of us showing you this verse when you were claiming a Christian has a sin nature and does sin? You sure do change your positions a lot. We already talked about this verse 2 months ago, then you were saying a Christian does sin.

Once again no rebuttal just a personal attack

"Marx and Engels never tried to refute their opponents with argument. They insulted, ridiculed, derided, slandered, and traduced them, and in the use of these methods their followers are not less expert. Their polemic is directed never against the argument of the opponent, but always against his person."

1 John 3:9 (NKJV)
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Is on the table. Rebut it if you can it says Christians cannot sin.

Ok Ed aIl joking aside. I will address the scripture that you use here. This is not saying the God or Jesus keeps someone from sinning because it also says in 1 john 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and in John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Both of theses scripture are to Christians not unbelievers. Another thing to remember is that this Book was written to Christians about some gnostic heresies that were creeping in. The verse that you are using is addressing the gnostic belief of dualism. Which taught that anything done in the body, even the grossest sin, has no meaning because real life exists in the spirit realm only. John was addressing this teaching. John was not saying that God controls and prevents the Christian from sinning, if that were the case why did he write that we as Christians have an advocate if we do sin and to confess our sins if we do?

[Justaned]

Ed so now we are denying the fact that a Christian can backslide? Ed do you remember a few of us showing you this verse when you were claiming a Christian has a sin nature and does sin? You sure do change your positions a lot. We already talked about this verse 2 months ago, then you were saying a Christian does sin.

Once again no rebuttal just a personal attack

"Marx and Engels never tried to refute their opponents with argument. They insulted, ridiculed, derided, slandered, and traduced them, and in the use of these methods their followers are not less expert. Their polemic is directed never against the argument of the opponent, but always against his person."

1 John 3:9 (NKJV)
9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

Is on the table. Rebut it if you can it says Christians cannot sin.

Ok Ed aIl joking aside. I will address the scripture that you use here. This is not saying the God or Jesus keeps someone from sinning because it also says in 1 john 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and in John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. Both of theses scripture are to Christians not unbelievers. Another thing to remember is that this Book was written to Christians about some gnostic heresies that were creeping in. The verse that you are using is addressing the gnostic belief of dualism. Which taught that anything done in the body, even the grossest sin, has no meaning because real life exists in the spirit realm only. John was addressing this teaching. John was not saying that God controls and prevents the Christian from sinning if that were the case why did he write that we as Christians have an advocate if we do sin and to confess our sins if we do sin?

Rocky
I am constantly being accused of putting a spin on scripture, but I never tried to blame it on gnostics. The scriptures you posted are good ones and go with scripture that says if any man says he does not sin he is a liar. However non of this is talking of deliberate and willful sin. It is talking of sin committed unintentionally, in the heat of the moment or by omission. Even Paul said that happened to him. He didn't want to sin but sometimes things got the best of him.

What 1John 3:9 and Hebrews 10:27 is talking about is willful and deliberate sin. A true Christian simply doesn't commit that kind of sin.

If you think they can then show me scripture that establishes that doctrine.

As for backsliding it is not mentioned in the new testament, it simply isn't there. It is mentioned in the Old Testament and that is to be expected. They weren't given the Holy Spirit as New Testament saints are and there was no reborn nature in the Old Testament.

All old and new testament saints are called to holiness. Christians today should be concerned about how to become more holy not whether they can sin and get away with it.

[Rocky]

Rocky
I am constantly being accused of putting a spin on scripture, but I never tried to blame it on gnostics.

What do you mean? Ed are you not aware of that background of why 1 John was written?

[Justaned]

Rocky
I am constantly being accused of putting a spin on scripture, but I never tried to blame it on gnostics.

Ed are you not aware of that background of why 1 John was written?

What has that got to do with anything. Is not scripture inspired? Does it not speak to us today? If we analyze anything long enough we can justify or make it speak to whatever we want.

We know we are born again. We know Jesus resides in us. We know we were given the Holy Spirit to help us. We are told to crucify the flesh, we are told we must die and arise in Christ. We are told if we love Jesus we will obey Him, we are told to seek God's Kingdom, we are told only holiness will see God. All of this is written all through the New Testament yet you want us discount all of it so we can maintain your perception of Free Will. If we are bought with a price does that not tell you free will must be willing to submit to Christ?