Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Sovereignty vs Free Will

[victoryword]

If God regrets having made man when He foreknew the outcome and had a plan all along then what's up with this "regret" stuff? Is God schizo? (My answer, of course, is "NO!!!!")

You make an interesting point, however if God did not foreknow this, then why:

Was Jesus "the lamb slain BEFORE the foundation of the world" according to Rev 13

Was Jesus "chosen BEFORE the foundation of the world" according to 1 Peter 1

It would appear that if God knew man was going to need a savior BEFORE the foundation of the world, he would not have regretted making man, at least regret as we understand it.

Hi Grandfather

Good question. Actually such a good question that I have a whole teaching outline on it. You are free to pm me your e-mail address and I can e-mail it to you. However, in short, the Greek word for "foundation" is katabolē. As E. W. Bullinger notes, "....kataballo and katabole are not the proper terms for founding and foundation, but the correct meaning is casting down, or overthrow.”

Now, here are some literal translations of Rev. 13:8:

• And all who are dwelling on the earth will be worshiping it, everyone whose name is not written in the scroll of life of the Lambkin slain from the disruption of the world. (Rev. 13:8; Concordant Literal Version)
  
  And will worship him all those dwelling on the earth, of which not has been written the name in the scroll of the life of the lamb of that having been killed, from a casting down of a world. (Emphatic Diaglott New Testament)
  
  And all those continually dwelling upon the earth (land) will worship it -- of which ones, the name has not been written within the scroll of “The Life of the little Lamb:” the One having been slaughtered from a casting-down of [the] ordered arrangement (world) [or: from {the} world's founding]. (Jonathan Mitchell New Testament)

God saw the need for redemption after man had sinned.

[Grandfather]

If God regrets having made man when He foreknew the outcome and had a plan all along then what's up with this "regret" stuff? Is God schizo? (My answer, of course, is "NO!!!!")

You make an interesting point, however if God did not foreknow this, then why:

Was Jesus "the lamb slain BEFORE the foundation of the world" according to Rev 13

Was Jesus "chosen BEFORE the foundation of the world" according to 1 Peter 1

It would appear that if God knew man was going to need a savior BEFORE the foundation of the world, he would not have regretted making man, at least regret as we understand it.

Hi Grandfather

Good question. Actually such a good question that I have a whole teaching outline on it. You are free to pm me your e-mail address and I can e-mail it to you. However, in short, the Greek word for "foundation" is katabolē. As E. W. Bullinger notes, "....kataballo and katabole are not the proper terms for founding and foundation, but the correct meaning is casting down, or overthrow.”

Now, here are some literal translations of Rev. 13:8:

• And all who are dwelling on the earth will be worshiping it, everyone whose name is not written in the scroll of life of the Lambkin slain from the disruption of the world. (Rev. 13:8; Concordant Literal Version)
  
  And will worship him all those dwelling on the earth, of which not has been written the name in the scroll of the life of the lamb of that having been killed, from a casting down of a world. (Emphatic Diaglott New Testament)
  
  And all those continually dwelling upon the earth (land) will worship it -- of which ones, the name has not been written within the scroll of “The Life of the little Lamb:” the One having been slaughtered from a casting-down of [the] ordered arrangement (world) [or: from {the} world's founding]. (Jonathan Mitchell New Testament)

God saw the need for redemption after man had sinned.

Hmmmm, so God's love for the son wasn't until the casting down or overthrow? Because John records Jesus as praying that "you loved me before the foundation of the world"

But even then there is the hurdle of 1 John 3:20 where we are told that God knows ALL things.

Please remember, I'm just pointing to scriptures that are in apparent conflict with what you are suggesting. And I would expect you to allow me the same leeway to "explain away" the disagreement with scriptures you say invalidate one side and much as you "explain away" those you disagree with.

The truth is in the reconciliation of all scriptures, not the explaining away of any.

[victoryword]

Hmmmm, so God's love for the son wasn't until the casting down or overthrow? Because John records Jesus as praying that "you loved me before the foundation of the world"

Rev. 13:8 says FROM the foundation (or disruption of the world). John 17 says that Jesus was loved BEFORE the foundation (or disruption) of the world. Don't see where the issue is at GrandFather.

But even then there is the hurdle of 1 John 3:20 where we are told that God knows ALL things.

Please remember, I'm just pointing to scriptures that are in apparent conflict with what you are suggesting. And I would expect you to allow me the same leeway to "explain away" the disagreement with scriptures you say invalidate one side and much as you "explain away" those you disagree with.

The truth is in the reconciliation of all scriptures, not the explaining away of any.

1 John 3:20 does not pose any problem for me personally, especially as I keep it in context: For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

KNows all things about what? IN context John is not giving a theological dissertation on omniscience and foreknowledge. He is talking about the intimate knowledge that God has of each of us. Basically, John is saying, "For God is greater than our worried hearts and knows more about us than we do ourselves." (The Message)

You can call it "explaining away" but I was just answering your questions, not trying to convince you. I am comfortable with what I understand about this subject regardless of who agrees or disagrees with me.

[Justaned]

Hmmmm, so God's love for the son wasn't until the casting down or overthrow? Because John records Jesus as praying that "you loved me before the foundation of the world"

Rev. 13:8 says FROM the foundation (or disruption of the world). John 17 says that Jesus was loved BEFORE the foundation (or disruption) of the world. Don't see where the issue is at GrandFather.

But even then there is the hurdle of 1 John 3:20 where we are told that God knows ALL things.

Please remember, I'm just pointing to scriptures that are in apparent conflict with what you are suggesting. And I would expect you to allow me the same leeway to "explain away" the disagreement with scriptures you say invalidate one side and much as you "explain away" those you disagree with.

The truth is in the reconciliation of all scriptures, not the explaining away of any.

1 John 3:20 does not pose any problem for me personally, especially as I keep it in context: For if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart, and knows all things.

KNows all things about what? IN context John is not giving a theological dissertation on omniscience and foreknowledge. He is talking about the intimate knowledge that God has of each of us. Basically, John is saying, "For God is greater than our worried hearts and knows more about us than we do ourselves." (The Message)

You can call it "explaining away" but I was just answering your questions, not trying to convince you. I am comfortable with what I understand about this subject regardless of who agrees or disagrees with me.

Why is it man always tries to put constraints on God? Why can't man accept that fact that God can and does have power that man can not even conceive of? God clearly tells us in his word he knows the thoughts of man. As I said in another thread there are 7 billion people alive in the world today. For God to know the heart of every man God has to be able to be omnipresent and omniscient all present all knowing. But because we can't understand this we say oh no and place constraints on God that makes him explainable to our limited minds.

God is God with God all things are possible including being omnipresent and omniscient.

The fact you are comfortable with your understanding is saying nothing more than I have reduced God down to a being that I can explain. Is that really God? Or is the God that you have created?

[Ironman]

Thanks Ironman,

You gave a very powerful verse of Scripture.

Gen 22:12, "And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

For Bible believers it is very simple - just believe the Bible.

Yes, just believe the Bible:

In Isaiah 46:10 God says: “I make known the end from the beginning”

In Psalm 137 David writes: “Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely”

In 1 John 3:20 John writes: “God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.”

And if you so chose to say in effect: "Those scriptures don't mean....." then you must allow others to use the same argument to Gen 22 and others.

So I agree the Gen 22 says "I know now..." and COULD imply that God did not know beforehand. Will you agree that 1 John 3 says "God knows all things"?

Hi Grandfather.

The Bible gives us many simple statements that limit God's knowledge. There would be no sense in them if we do not believe them literally.

God gets to know things concerning the free moral actions of men as others do (Gen. 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18:21; 22:12; 2 Chron. 16:9; Zech. 4:10; Job 12:22; 24:23; Ps. 7:9; 44:21; Ps. 139:1-6; Prov. 24:12; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 11:5; Rom. 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4).

God sends messengers throughout the Earth who report to Him of all they find on Earth that goes on (Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 2:4). God does not take care personally or every detail of His vast business in all the kingdoms in the entire universe. God agents help God and they are found in every part of the universe on missions for God. Certain angels are responsible to God for carrying out His will in infinite detail concerning the billions of suns, moons, planets and all free moral agents on them.

God Himself said of certain events that they did not even come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21).

As mentioned earlier, God did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen 6:5-7); that they would plan Babel (Gen.11:5-7); that Sodom would be so wicked (Gen. 18:21, 26, 28-32); That Abraham would actually proceed to offer his son Isaac (Gen. 22:12).

God did not know whether it would take one two or three signs to make Israel believe in Him (Ex. 4;1-12); or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him, or not (Deut. 8:2, 16).

God did not know that Israel would backslide as far as she did (Deut. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19)

God searches to find men whom He can bless (2 Chr.16:9). God discovers deep things (Job 12:22); tries the hearts and reins of men so that He may know them (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chron.28:9; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor. 2:10; Rev. 2:23, proving all men for the same reason (Ps. 17:3; 66:10; 81:7).

God eternal plan is known by Him from beginning to end and what He plans to bring to pass on Earth he has the power to do, but concerning the free actions of free moral agents He does not know from all eternity that they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. God does not know who will be saved or who will be lost. God has made His plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan will be blessed with the predestined blessings. Those who freely choose to wilfully rebel will be curded with the predestined punishments according to His plan. It is the PLAN that is known from beginning to end, not free moral agents individual conformity to Gods PLAN.

It is left up to each individual free moral agent to choose his own destiny. God wills all men to be saved but if men do not choose to be saved that is their destiny and responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22:17).

IF GOD KNEW BEFORE HAND WHO WOULD BE SAVED AND WHO WOULD NOT BE SAVED, THEN WHY WOULD GOD CREATE SINNERS? . . . TO BE PUNISHED ETERNALLY IN HELLFIRE? WHY NOT JUST CREATE THOSE WHO WOULDBE SAVED?

BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE ROBOTS, MUTONS AND NOT FREE MORAL AGENTS WHO LOVED GOD AND FREELY CHOSE TO BE SAVED! How easy was that? Even my grandchildren know this. Do as Dad and Grand-dad says and be rewarded, do the opposite and expect to be punished.

Cheers mate.