Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Thought Provoking OSAS

[Rocky]

Well see my ignorance is showing again according to you and Reuben. So be it.
However I have never met a person that has come out of a church/denomination/theology and has gotten saved afterwards that hasn't said how terrible their last stop was.

Well it depends what former church or theology you are talking about

Example I was born and raised EUB which became Methodist. I was saved in Methodist church yet I have met people that now attending somewhere else that will wear you can not be really saved in the Methodist church. Why because they weren't. The problem had to be the church not that Holy Spirit hadn't quickened their heart yet to hear the truth.

Well Methodist is completely different than Catholicism almost like a whole nother religion

As for the 6-8 weeks of indoctrination you mentioned Rocky that is called Catechism. First it is given to mostly to kids and being kids they tend to treat it like they do anything that takes them away from what they really want to do.

Not so its for anyone who converts to Catholicism adults or kids, you cannot be a catholic without taking the classes or take part in any of the sacraments...

However if you read over Catholic Catechism you will find little you can disagree with if you fully read it. Sure there are some things but I defy you to find another document that complex, that complete, written on the subject of religious beliefs that your fully agree with. Case in point most people will say the don't fully agree with Dake on every thing he wrote in the DARB.

Again this is not the case at all. I agree with the Jws that there is a God, but that does not make it good theology.

You guys are probably right I don't know about Catholics and we should storm their church doors drag them out and kill the heretics. We sure don't want no filthy Catholics smelling up heaven that is for sure. Thanks guys you showed me the way.

Don't want to kill anyone one I dearly love my parents and my Dad is a good man, But I would love him the same if he was a buddhist or LDS or Jehovah Witness. You are showing your complete lack of knowledge of catholism here, no offence. And I am not attacking you, just trying to help. From my understanding it is more like a cult then a sect of christianity. But what do I know I was only raised up around it lol. These people need our prayers and love. Ed there is so much about this religion that you may need to study out.

[Reuben]

Justaned wrote:As for the 6-8 weeks of indoctrination you mentioned Rocky that is called Catechism. First it is given to mostly to kids and being kids they tend to treat it like they do anything that takes them away from what they really want to do.

Not so its for anyone who converts to Catholicism adults or kids, you cannot be a catholic without taking the classes or take part in any of the sacraments...

Thanks for your answers Rocky! I found them to be what I have learned as well.

I did want to ask you: when does a Catholic believe salvation takes place? This is not a trick question - just interested in your response. Terms such as salvation, born-again, regeneration, saved... seem to be foreign to them or at least skewed to some degree. What have you experienced in your interactions?

[branham1965]

i am always ...moved by your responses.
love you guys Reverend.

Justaned wrote:As for the 6-8 weeks of indoctrination you mentioned Rocky that is called Catechism. First it is given to mostly to kids and being kids they tend to treat it like they do anything that takes them away from what they really want to do.

Not so its for anyone who converts to Catholicism adults or kids, you cannot be a catholic without taking the classes or take part in any of the sacraments...

Thanks for your answers Rocky! I found them to be what I have learned as well.

I did want to ask you: when does a Catholic believe salvation takes place? This is not a trick question - just interested in your response. Terms such as salvation, born-again, regeneration, saved... seem to be foreign to them or at least skewed to some degree. What have you experienced in your interactions?

[Rocky]

Justaned wrote:As for the 6-8 weeks of indoctrination you mentioned Rocky that is called Catechism. First it is given to mostly to kids and being kids they tend to treat it like they do anything that takes them away from what they really want to do.

Not so its for anyone who converts to Catholicism adults or kids, you cannot be a catholic without taking the classes or take part in any of the sacraments...

Thanks for your answers Rocky! I found them to be what I have learned as well.

I did want to ask you: when does a Catholic believe salvation takes place? This is not a trick question - just interested in your response. Terms such as salvation, born-again, regeneration, saved... seem to be foreign to them or at least skewed to some degree. What have you experienced in your interactions?

When does salvation take place?This may be long Because it cannot be explained like the way we understand it, But I think you will enjoy the read even though it has my bad commentary on it lol. Yeah it is skewed, in a sense its a works based salvation even initially, kind of clean the fish before you catch them mentality. Without quoting from my catechism to much, I will just give a some up on their process, because its like 10 pages long on how to become catholic. Catholics don't use the term saved its not part of their vocabulary, even though as you know the bible uses that term. It's a born again and again, but not like Dake teaches. Every time ones goes to confession the sins get exsolved then you can take the eucharius so every time you do this you are born again. There are 7 sacraments, 4 has to do with the indoctrination process. Its not like us to were it is based on faith in Jesus and all that entails. Regeneration is not part of the catholic vocabulary either. This process is what a lot of protestants are not aware of. The 4 sacraments or designed to get the convert to be catholic enough to take the Eucharist which is what the religion pretty much revolves around.
Ok here is the process in a nutshell: like I said there are 7 sacraments but 4 are directed mainly at the laymen and new converts. I will underline the sacraments. First if you are a baby, Baptism then later the classes
If you are a new convert first the classes than baptism. Because Baptism takes away the stain of original sin, but you have to wait till Easter.(I know not biblical, but remember its not sola scriptura)
Then the sacrament of Reconciliation this involves penance and confession which has three elements: conversion, confession and celebration.
Then the Eucharist, Because the sacrament of baptism and reconciliation makes you worthy enough so to speak to be able to partake of it.
Now we get to Confirmation, It is one of the three Sacraments of Initiation for Catholics. It is most often associated with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Now after all this you repeat all except Baptism and confirmation every mass. To miss mass according to the catechism is a mortal sin because only priests can distribute the sacraments, remember its the sacraments that's saves, now a lay catholic will deny this up and down, but its is true. I know pretty confusing, now in my opinion this is almost cult like, because there is no salvation outside of the catholic church. I would be considered a heretic by the church because I know about the holy orders and the sacraments of the church but have rejected it. Catholics only believe if you don't know about all of this out of ignorance than you might can get to heaven, especially if a priest gives you the last Last Rites. If not we may have to spend time in purgatory so our works can be purified. In the catholic church purgatory is not for sinner but for those who are on there way to heaven, but are not quite good enough or have not done enough to go there or has unconfused sin. Oh, by the way the catholic church believes the convert still has a sin nature. So as you can see, are catholic really born again believers accord to what the bible teaches? To me its just empty unbiblical rituals to be blunt that cannot save a soul. I am glad that the B-I-b-l-e is a little more simplistic.
Hmmm I guess the cross was not enough. So yeah it may be a cult

[Justaned]

Well see my ignorance is showing again according to you and Reuben. So be it.
However I have never met a person that has come out of a church/denomination/theology and has gotten saved afterwards that hasn't said how terrible their last stop was.

Well it depends what former church or theology you are talking about

Example I was born and raised EUB which became Methodist. I was saved in Methodist church yet I have met people that now attending somewhere else that will wear you can not be really saved in the Methodist church. Why because they weren't. The problem had to be the church not that Holy Spirit hadn't quickened their heart yet to hear the truth.

Well Methodist is completely different than Catholicism almost like a whole nother religion

As for the 6-8 weeks of indoctrination you mentioned Rocky that is called Catechism. First it is given to mostly to kids and being kids they tend to treat it like they do anything that takes them away from what they really want to do.

Not so its for anyone who converts to Catholicism adults or kids, you cannot be a catholic without taking the classes or take part in any of the sacraments...

However if you read over Catholic Catechism you will find little you can disagree with if you fully read it. Sure there are some things but I defy you to find another document that complex, that complete, written on the subject of religious beliefs that your fully agree with. Case in point most people will say the don't fully agree with Dake on every thing he wrote in the DARB.

Again this is not the case at all. I agree with the Jws that there is a God, but that does not make it good theology.

You guys are probably right I don't know about Catholics and we should storm their church doors drag them out and kill the heretics. We sure don't want no filthy Catholics smelling up heaven that is for sure. Thanks guys you showed me the way.

Don't want to kill anyone one I dearly love my parents and my Dad is a good man, But I would love him the same if he was a buddhist or LDS or Jehovah Witness. You are showing your complete lack of knowledge of catholism here, no offence. And I am not attacking you, just trying to help. From my understanding it is more like a cult then a sect of christianity. But what do I know I was only raised up around it lol. These people need our prayers and love. Ed there is so much about this religion that you may need to study out.

Okay all Catholic are going to hell. However most all Catholics think your going to hell so who is right? You will probably retort but I have scripture that proves I'm going to heaven and the Catholics will respond the same way.

I know Catholic theologian that literally have spent their whole life studying scripture, researching scripture, mediating on scripture, reading scripture, and praying over scripture, that are convinced beyond any doubt that Catholicism as laid out in the Catechism of the church is absolutely correct. Their whole life as it is their life's work.

Are you seriously going to compare your knowledge gained from discussions with your dad, and a cursory reading of the Catechism to their knowledge, their study, their commitment to finding the truth?

[Justaned]

Yet after it is all said and done I know Catholics that will openly testify that they are saved, born again and trust only in Christ for their salvation. Imagine that Catholics that talk just like you. But they can't be saved because they are Catholic.

[Rocky]

Ed Read my reply to Reuben. You don't know what you are talking about to be blunt. Jws claim the same, so do other religions. Just read it, I am not attacking you just calm down I don't care who or what someone studies its called discernment. And I believe the Holy Ghost can help here. But again why don't you share your vast knowledge of Catholicism. I am trying to help here, not attack. why are you so offended? And I never said all Catholics are going to hell poopy pants lol

[Justaned]

Ed Read my reply to Reuben. You don't know what you are talking about to be blunt. Jws claim the same, so do other religions. Just read it, I am not attacking you just calm down I don't care who or what someone studies its called discernment. And I believe the Holy Ghost can help here. But again why don't you share your vast knowledge of Catholicism. I am trying to help here, not attack. why are you so offended? And I never said all Catholics are going to hell poopy pants lol

Good night Rocky.

[macca]

Being raised catholic i thought i was heaven bound because i was catholic, as did all those that i knew.
We were not taught about the new birth, the good news as Paul taught or the power of the Holy Spirit to keep us saved and free from fear.
I was bound by fear because of what i was taught as a catholic and what i saw as a child and a teenager.
The catholics that i knew were very superstitious and there was NO jesus as a foundation to build our faith upon, just the church and the pope down through the
bishops then the priests.
They taught me about Jesus and i was in love with him when i was around 10 or 11, but, it was not enough to ground me though, because its mixed with catholic
church teaching that is so far and away outside of the bible.
A personal Jesus that can be aproached without fear or favour was never mentioned.
A god that loves me and wants a personal realationship with me is unheard of where i came from.
When i said yes to Jesus on the 14-2-1984 a light went on in my spirit and all the junk i had imbibed over the years before that started to crack and fall away.
Freedom from fear was the most wonderful experience that i have had at that point and all i wanted to do was learn about Jesus my Lord and savour.
My eyes were open for the first time to see the truth of the word of God and i thank God in Jesus' for the man that introduced me to Jesus and his Dake bible and Hagin tapes.

I am not a catholic now and never could go back there.

macca

[Justaned]

Ed Read my reply to Reuben. You don't know what you are talking about to be blunt. Jws claim the same, so do other religions. Just read it, I am not attacking you just calm down I don't care who or what someone studies its called discernment. And I believe the Holy Ghost can help here. But again why don't you share your vast knowledge of Catholicism. I am trying to help here, not attack. why are you so offended? And I never said all Catholics are going to hell poopy pants lol

Rocky
You are the one missing the point. I'm not saying the Catholics are right or that you or the Protestants are wrong.
What I trying to show you is the most Catholics are just as sure they are right as you are sure they are wrong.

I'm not just talking Catholic laity although it is true for them but I'm talking of Catholic men and women that have spent their entire life dedicated to seeking the truth in scripture.

I don't need you to teach me about Catholics as I know as much as I want to know. The point is not whether you or I think they are right or wrong it is about people believing what they believe in is the truth.

Very few people will willingly follow what they know to be a lie. It does not matter whether we think it is a lie or not. If they are following it they are convinced it is the truth.

And that is the problem, the Reformation declared that each man could decide for himself what was true and what was a lie.

With that in mind to point that was being made was OSAS people have decided what they believe in is truth and any that does not believe it is deceived. Baptist believe in 4 petal Calvinism and any that does not believe in it is deceived and that Pentecostals are Satan's agents.
Presbyterians believe in 5 petal Calvinism and any that does not is deceived.

To net it out each denomination of which there are at least 3000 and some estimate as high 30,000 believe they have the truth and everyone else is missing it.

That does not lend to unity within the body of Christ now does it.