Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Finis Dake's View of Spirtual Warfare

[Justaned]

Frenchie

I believe that "Whosoever is born of God doth not habitually commit sin" it is an accurate interpretation based on several Greek scholars. However, I don't believe that it does no damage to the case that a person can live free from sin. On the contrary, I believe it supports it. Justaned believes that we do sin but Scripture is clear that a born again person can live free from it.

Now sometimes we all slip (wrong thought, harsh word here and there, etc.) but this does not mean we do it constantly. If we cannot take control of our flesh then what was the purpose of Christ's finished work or the Holy Spirit's indwelling us? Is He not there to keep us from stumbling and falling? All sins of the unbeliever is based on their sin nature. All sins of the born again believer is due to wrong choices. Believers have the God-given power to resist sin.

I suggestted that and Rocky clearly told me I was wrong. He is definitely OSAS

[Justaned]

ok, Ed...one more time...

You are REDEFINING a term. the SIN NATURE. It is the NATURE of man, after the fall, and before a man receives Christ. Adam was not inclined to sin, and in fact, Adam was created in the very image and likeness of God...until he did sin, and fell from his status. His nature went from godliness to sinful. He was no longer sinless, for he had taken within himself the SIN NATURE. He had no sin, because he was created by God. But once he fell, he became sinful. His nature was then sin, thus, he then had a SIN NATURE. His nature then corrupted the entire human race, passing on the SIN NATURE to the rest of humanity...except for Christ. The reason Jesus did not inherit that SIN NATURE, is because He did not come from the loins of a MAN. A MAN was not Jesus' father...God was His Father. That is why He is called the SECOND ADAM...All the way back in Genesis 3, God said that the Saviour (Jesus, unless you believe that passage is talking about something other than what it is talking about also?) would come from the "seed of the woman". The SIN NATURE did not pass through the woman, it passed from the man.

Now, the SIN NATURE, is the very nature of man in his fallen state. If Jesus had a sin nature, as you continue to stupidly declare (and yes, I used that term, because this tops any other idiocy that you have pushed on these forums), then He could not have even paid for His own sinfullness (because if he had a sin nature, then he was a sinner). The flesh is not the sin nature, but for some reason, you keep pushing that it is. It is not. If the flesh was the sin nature, then God created Adam and Eve as a flawed creation. If what you are saying is true, then God created Adam, full of sin, full of pride, full of envy, full of lust...And that would make God the author of sin. Is He the author of sin? You tell me? It sounds like you are, indeed, saying that.

Do you not see the craziness that you are pushing? Be a man and admit that you used the wrong term...and stop fighting this silly battle to always be right. You are borderline (you may have even gone over that line) heresy now...and even when it is pointed out to you, in simple terms...you still grit your teeth and dig your heels into the ground...why? Because there is no way that you could ever be wrong, and us right? Get over yourself...

And as far as you continuing to go back to this "Then you don't sin?" is such a stupid argument. Nobody has said such a thing, and you know it. I don't believe even one person has said that Jesus could not be tempted. We have continued to say that his NATURE WAS NOT SIN, unlike you, who keeps trying to force that redefinition of the term used.

You are wrong, it is that simple. And one more time...

JESUS DID NOT HAVE A SIN NATURE.

Sounds like you are redefining sin nature and you don't know what you are talking about. Go look it up and come back.
Sin nature means you have not only the capacity to sin but you are drawn to it.
Jesus had a fleshly man but he never allowed that flesh to be in control, Jesus clearly says He only did what the father instructed Him to do. That means Jesus was spirit driven not flesh driven. Jesus never sinned so Jesus was the perfect sacrifice. That is Christianity 101. Instead of attacking me you should start reading your bible.

[Rocky]

Frenchie

I believe that "Whosoever is born of God doth not habitually commit sin" it is an accurate interpretation based on several Greek scholars. However, I don't believe that it does no damage to the case that a person can live free from sin. On the contrary, I believe it supports it. Justaned believes that we do sin but Scripture is clear that a born again person can live free from it.

Now sometimes we all slip (wrong thought, harsh word here and there, etc.) but this does not mean we do it constantly. If we cannot take control of our flesh then what was the purpose of Christ's finished work or the Holy Spirit's indwelling us? Is He not there to keep us from stumbling and falling? All sins of the unbeliever is based on their sin nature. All sins of the born again believer is due to wrong choices. Believers have the God-given power to resist sin.

I suggestted that and Rocky clearly told me I was wrong. He is definitely OSAS

No you did not suggest that. You were claiming that the Christian had a sin nature, And to try to back this up you keep trying to trap me into saying I never sin, or at least say I do, so you could say "See you have a sin nature". That's why you keep asking me if sin. I never said that I did or didn't. I said the Christian can live free from it. And then gave scripture to prove this point. Your rhetorical questions was you trying to back up your theory that the born again believer had a sin the nature.

[Justaned]

Frenchie

I believe that "Whosoever is born of God doth not habitually commit sin" it is an accurate interpretation based on several Greek scholars. However, I don't believe that it does no damage to the case that a person can live free from sin. On the contrary, I believe it supports it. Justaned believes that we do sin but Scripture is clear that a born again person can live free from it.

Now sometimes we all slip (wrong thought, harsh word here and there, etc.) but this does not mean we do it constantly. If we cannot take control of our flesh then what was the purpose of Christ's finished work or the Holy Spirit's indwelling us? Is He not there to keep us from stumbling and falling? All sins of the unbeliever is based on their sin nature. All sins of the born again believer is due to wrong choices. Believers have the God-given power to resist sin.

I suggested that and Rocky clearly told me I was wrong. He is definitely OSAS

No you did not suggest that. You were claiming that the Christian had a sin nature, And to try to back this up you keep trying to trap me into saying I never sin, or at least say I do, so you could say "See you have a sin nature". That's why you keep asking me if sin. I never said that I did or didn't. I said the Christian can live free from it. And then gave scripture to prove this point. Your rhetorical questions was you trying to back up your theory that the born again believer had a sin the nature.

And if your interpretation of that scripture is correct then OSAS is a fact. Which you also deny. You have built yourself a box.
Christians do sin, Christians do not engage in sin, or commit sin willing but as long as we are in these bodies we have carnal man to deal with. Carnal man does not possess the fruit the spirit so therefore carnal man reacts in sinful ways.

One day we will have a perfected body one that does not have a carnal man, propensity for sin, a sin nature. At which point our spirit man will no longer have to strive with our carnal man.

Jesus born of the flesh had a carnal man, but unlike us Jesus knew the truth and did not allow his carnal man to have control. Jesus said He only did what the Father told Him to do. In other words Jesus lived by the spirit. That is why even having a sin nature a disposition to sin Jesus NEVER SINNED. He was always lead by the spirit.

While we should all follow that example we don't, that is why we have an intercessor, Jesus makes intercession not for the sins we don't commit but for the ones we do.

You are right I tried to get you to admit that you were like everyone of us, that you do sin at times. We all do and God knew we would fail, that is why we need a living high priest. The High Priest of Israel made intercession for the people's sin. Our living Eternal HIgh Priest makes intercession for us.

Had you been honest with your answer you would have realized the problem with your position. Instead you tried to blow smoke and make accusations about me. Which in itself was sin since you would not want someone to do that to you, now would you? Of course not no body does. So let us get honest and admit to ourselves that try as we might the fleshly carnal man still raises his head and we sin. However our sins are forgiven because our Eternal High Priest who makes intercession for us.

[cpbeller]

oh Ed...I was not attacking you, I was simply telling you how stupid your argument is becoming, and how stupid your desire that YOU. MUST. ALWAYS. BE. RIGHT. Ed, you are wrong, simply that. There is nothing right in your understanding of what the sin nature is. And it shows, because you keep holding on to your nonsensical view. And like I said, if it isn't, it is about as close as you can get without going over the edge into blasphemy and heresy...

The fact of the matter is, I do know what the sin nature is. And I want you to go to your church and preach that Jesus had a sin nature, with the next guy over you sitting in the front pew. The "flesh" is not the SIN NATURE. The flesh simply houses who I really am. I am a spirit, I have a soul, and I live in a FLESH body. Before I was saved and received Christ as Saviour, I had a sin nature. But that nature died with Christ on the cross. It is no longer natural for me to sin, just like it would not have been natural for Jesus to sin, and it was not natural for Adam to sin. Look what happened when Adam sinned...all of creation fell. That was caused by one man sinning, and warping his spirit with a nature that God had not designed for him. The fall of creation was because Adam took in that sinful nature. The temptation of Jesus was for Jesus to "pass the test" that Adam failed at so long ago. The ability for sin, the capacity for sin, has nothing to do with the sin nature.

But, you know what....you go on and keep telling everyone that Jesus had a sin nature. Eventually, you will mumble that garbage to one of the leaders in your church, and you will lose your preaching nature.

I would love to be a fly on the wall when you speak at the wrong time, and mention that you feel that Jesus had a sin nature and you get pulled to your principals office...although, I wonder, the stupid things you keep coming up with, I wonder if you are your own authority...because the AoG sure doesn't teach that stuff. And I know that the Church of God (Cleveland, TN) doesn't either. Unless they all fell into the gutter right along with you...

And yes...what you are saying is nothing short of gutter trash talk...to even argue the point that "Jesus had a sin nature" as a pentacostal minister is disgusting.

I also want to add one more thing...to the rest of the board...I am sorry if these posts of mine are offensive...but this trash needs to be dealt with. This doctrine that he is pushing is such a false teaching (but it sounds so good...I mean, Jesus had a sinful nature?)...it is disgusting to me, and I am going to call this what it is...gutter trash. Pushing this like you are, it is shameful. I just hope and pray that newborn's in Christ don't visit here and stop reading and accept what you are dishing out...although, we should have seen this coming from you before with your adversity to having victory over sin and the enemy through Christ...This, I guess, is the next logical step.

[Justaned]

oh Ed...I was not attacking you, I was simply telling you how stupid your argument is becoming, and how stupid your desire that YOU. MUST. ALWAYS. BE. RIGHT. Ed, you are wrong, simply that. There is nothing right in your understanding of what the sin nature is. And it shows, because you keep holding on to your nonsensical view. And like I said, if it isn't, it is about as close as you can get without going over the edge into blasphemy and heresy...

The fact of the matter is, I do know what the sin nature is. And I want you to go to your church and preach that Jesus had a sin nature, with the next guy over you sitting in the front pew. The "flesh" is not the SIN NATURE. The flesh simply houses who I really am. I am a spirit, I have a soul, and I live in a FLESH body. Before I was saved and received Christ as Saviour, I had a sin nature. But that nature died with Christ on the cross. It is no longer natural for me to sin, just like it would not have been natural for Jesus to sin, and it was not natural for Adam to sin. Look what happened when Adam sinned...all of creation fell. That was caused by one man sinning, and warping his spirit with a nature that God had not designed for him. The fall of creation was because Adam took in that sinful nature. The temptation of Jesus was for Jesus to "pass the test" that Adam failed at so long ago. The ability for sin, the capacity for sin, has nothing to do with the sin nature.

But, you know what....you go on and keep telling everyone that Jesus had a sin nature. Eventually, you will mumble that garbage to one of the leaders in your church, and you will lose your preaching nature.

I would love to be a fly on the wall when you speak at the wrong time, and mention that you feel that Jesus had a sin nature and you get pulled to your principals office...although, I wonder, the stupid things you keep coming up with, I wonder if you are your own authority...because the AoG sure doesn't teach that stuff. And I know that the Church of God (Cleveland, TN) doesn't either. Unless they all fell into the gutter right along with you...

And yes...what you are saying is nothing short of gutter trash talk...to even argue the point that "Jesus had a sin nature" as a pentacostal minister is disgusting.

I also want to add one more thing...to the rest of the board...I am sorry if these posts of mine are offensive...but this trash needs to be dealt with. This doctrine that he is pushing is such a false teaching (but it sounds so good...I mean, Jesus had a sinful nature?)...it is disgusting to me, and I am going to call this what it is...gutter trash. Pushing this like you are, it is shameful. I just hope and pray that newborn's in Christ don't visit here and stop reading and accept what you are dishing out...although, we should have seen this coming from you before with your adversity to having victory over sin and the enemy through Christ...This, I guess, is the next logical step.

Chris this is Christianity 101 I can't believe what you are saying. Here are some quotes if you want more do a search on in Google on sin nature, read a systematic theology book, read your Bible. If Jesus was fully human which He was He had to have the carnal man, propensity to sin, sin nature. That would be the only way He could be tempted.
THAT IS NOT TO SAY JESUS EVER SINNED. HE DID NOT! HE WAS SINLESS! BUT HE HAD THE ABILITY TO SIN, THE CARNAL MAN, THE PROPENSITY OR INCLINATION TO SIN, THE SIN NATURE THAT ENTERED MANKIND IN THE GARDEN.

The Old Testament prophets also affirmed that a sin nature exists in everyone born of human parents. Jeremiah said, “The heart is more deceitful than all else and is desperately sick; who can understand it?” (Jeremiah 17:9). The prophet Isaiah stated: For all of us have become like one who is unclean, and all our righteous deeds are like a filthy garment; And all of us wither like a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away” (Isaiah 64:6).

In the New Testament, Paul affirms an inherited sin nature when he says, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned” (Romans 5:12). And the Apostle John says this to his readers: If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8).

Students of Scripture have all reached the conclusion that the Bible teaches each and every person possesses a sinful nature, with Charles Spurgeon summing up the reality when he said: “As the salt flavors every drop in the Atlantic, so does sin affect every atom of our nature. It is so sadly there, so abundantly there, that if you cannot detect it, you are deceived.”

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/sin-nature. ... z2mvvm04Rk

The physical aspect of human beings, which distinguishes them from God and is therefore frequently used in the NT as a symbol of human sinful nature in contrast with God’s perfection. (The Greek word for “flesh” is sometimes translated by other words and phrases in the passages cited in this theme.).

Flesh as the bodily substance of human beings

As individuals or in relation to others Ps 84:2 See also Ge 2:23-24; Ge 29:14; 1Co 15:39 The following two examples from Paul, where the normal word for “flesh” underlies the translation “body”, make clear that to live “in the flesh” is normal human experience; the phrase does not necessarily imply that human nature is sinful, even though in many other instances a specific connection between “flesh” and “sin” is intended: Gal 2:20; Php 1:22-24

As the means by which Jesus Christ identified with the human race to bring salvation Jn 1:14 See also Eph 2:15; Heb 10:20; 1Jn 4:2
http://www.biblegateway.com/resources/d ... ful-nature
.

There must be no weakening or obscuring of the saving truth that the nature which God assumed in Christ is identical with our nature as we see it in the light of Fall. If it were otherwise, how could Christ be really like us? What concern would we have with him? We stand before God characterized by the Fall. God's Son not only assumed our nature but he entered the concrete form of our nature, under which we stand before God as men damned and lost. (Church Dogmatics I.2, p. 153)

His taking of our flesh of sin was a sinless action, which means that Jesus does not do in the flesh of sin what we do, namely, sin, but it also means that by remaining holy and sinless in our flesh, he condemned sin in the flesh he assumed and judged it by his very sinlessness. (Incarnation, p. 63)

Okay that should be enough proof that there are others in ministry that believe in what is known as the sin nature of Jesus. Again having a sin nature does not suggest one has to sin, or entertains thoughts of sin. It simply means we have the ability to sin.

I also know I could never convince you of anything so how about this.
Let us focus on what we both can agree with.

I think we both can agree
Jesus was fully human.
Jesus could and was tempted.
Jesus even though tempted never sinned.
We as humans do sin and that is why we need a Savior and Intercessor.
That as long as we are in these sin tainted bodies we have to dead with carnal man.
The only way we can do that is through Christ Jesus and by the leading of the Holy Spirit of our spirit.
We must crucify the flesh and allow our spirit man to lead us.

If that is not satisfactory to you then I'm sorry.
In other words I'm done discussing this with you.

[cpbeller]

Ed: "I think we both can agree
Jesus was fully human.
Jesus could and was tempted.
Jesus even though tempted never sinned.
We as humans do sin and that is why we need a Savior and Intercessor.
That as long as we are in these sin tainted bodies we have to dead with carnal man.
The only way we can do that is through Christ Jesus and by the leading of the Holy Spirit of our spirit.
We must crucify the flesh and allow our spirit man to lead us."

Yes, I do agree with that. The only thing I might not, is this statement, and only because I do not know what your agenda is in using the statement: "That as long as we are in these sin tainted bodies we have to dead (did you mean "deal" here?) with carnal man."

The reason I do not fully agree (and because I am not sure what your agenda is), is because, even though, I am in this flesh and blood body, my nature has been remade into the Righteousnes of God in Christ. It is no longer natural for me to sin, and that sin nature, the sinful nature, has passed away, not will pass away, but has passed away (2 Corinthians 5:17). My old nature, the old man, that sin-filled nature, has passed away.

Ed: "Chris this is Christianity 101..."

No, Ed...you teaching that Jesus had a sinful nature is "Ed's perverted Christianity 101: How To Be Heretically Wrong". And you are wrong, Ed. Jesus did not have a sin-filled nature, which is what "sin nature" means.

Ed: "If that is not satisfactory to you then I'm sorry.
In other words I'm done discussing this with you."

Good. Be lost in your false doctrine. What church do you minister at, Ed, because I need to have a word with your Pastor and the leadership of your church, so that they can be made aware of your "teachings"

[branham1965]

put off the old man...put on the new man.

if you live after the flesh you shall...die.

now you PERFECT folks tell people the sin nature is gone upon regeneration.
PAUL NEVER SHARED YOUR HERESY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
every person of that view fell openly.its a load of rubbish.always have been.

if you have no flesh why are you struggling so.could you hang out alone with a few Vicky secrets models???
there is nothing that sickens me more.

[bibleman]

put off the old man...put on the new man.

if you live after the flesh you shall...die.

now you PERFECT folks tell people the sin nature is gone upon regeneration.
PAUL NEVER SHARED YOUR HERESY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
every person of that view fell openly.its a load of rubbish.always have been.

if you have no flesh why are you struggling so.could you hang out alone with a few Vicky secrets models???
there is nothing that sickens me more.

Hi Billy

So you think Dake is a Heritic?

I thought you agreed with Dake on this issue?

What changed you into believing Dake's views are rubbish?

Two Old Things that Pass Away

1. The spirit, nature, and power of sin the old man, which is nothing more nor less than the spirit, nature, and power of the devil working in men of disobedience (Jn. 8:44; Eph. 2:2; 2Cor. 4:4; 1Jn. 3:8; 5:18). This is what the Bible calls:

(1) The old man (Rom. 6:6; Eph. 4:22; Col. 3:9)
(2) Sin (Jn. 1:29; 8:34; Rom. 6:4 -- Rom. 8:2)
(3) The body of sin (Rom. 6:6)
(4) The power of Satan (Acts 26:18)
(5) The body of this death (Rom. 7:24)
(6) The lusts of the flesh (Eph. 2:3)
(7) The lust of the eyes (1Jn. 2:15-17)
(8) The pride of life (1Jn. 2:15-17)
(9) The works of the flesh (Gal. 5:19)
(10) The world (1Jn. 2:15-17; Jas. 4:4)
(11) Vile affections (Rom. 1:26,29)
(12) The lusts of the mind (Eph. 2:3)
(13) The lusts of sin (Rom. 6:11-12)
(14) The motions of sins (Rom. 7:5)
(15) The law of sin and death (Rom. 7:7 -- Rom. 8:2)
(16) The carnal mind (Rom. 8:1-13)
(17) The god of this world (2Cor. 4:4)
(18) Spiritual wickedness in high places ... rulers of darkness (Eph. 6:12)
(19) The lusts of your father (Jn. 8:44)
(20) Sin that dwelleth in me (Rom. 7:17)
(21) The course of this world (Eph. 2:2)
(22) The body of the sins of the flesh (Col. 2:11; Gal. 5:24; Rom. 8)

2. Outward sin or transgression of the law (1Jn. 3:4; Rom. 4:15; Jas. 1:13-15). The outward acts are listed in Mk. 7:19-21; Rom. 1:18-32; 2Cor. 6:9-11; Gal. 5:19-21; Col. 3:5-10)

Both outward and inward sin must pass away or one cannot claim to be in Christ. The theory that only outward transgressions are forgiven and one is still under control of the old man (the devil) is one of the most erroneous doctrines in Christendom (2Cor. 5:17-18; Eph. 4:24; 1Jn. 5:18; Rom. 6:6-23; 8:1-13). See notes, 1Th. 4:3; 2Th. 2:13.
Finis Jennings Dake, Dake's Annotated Reference Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized or King James Version Text, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Bible Sales, Inc., 1997), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "Chapter 5".

[branham1965]

i agree with the man of God.

put off the old man...put on the new man.

if you live after the flesh you shall...die.

now you PERFECT folks tell people the sin nature is gone upon regeneration.
PAUL NEVER SHARED YOUR HERESY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
every person of that view fell openly.its a load of rubbish.always have been.

if you have no flesh why are you struggling so.could you hang out alone with a few Vicky secrets models???
there is nothing that sickens me more.

Hi Billy

So you think Dake is a Heritic?

I thought you agreed with Dake on this issue?

What changed you into believing Dake's views are rubbish?

Two Old Things that Pass Away

1. The spirit, nature, and power of sin the old man, which is nothing more nor less than the spirit, nature, and power of the devil working in men of disobedience (Jn. 8:44; Eph. 2:2; 2Cor. 4:4; 1Jn. 3:8; 5:18). This is what the Bible calls:

(1) The old man (Rom. 6:6; Eph. 4:22; Col. 3:9)
(2) Sin (Jn. 1:29; 8:34; Rom. 6:4 -- Rom. 8:2)
(3) The body of sin (Rom. 6:6)
(4) The power of Satan (Acts 26:18)
(5) The body of this death (Rom. 7:24)
(6) The lusts of the flesh (Eph. 2:3)
(7) The lust of the eyes (1Jn. 2:15-17)
(8) The pride of life (1Jn. 2:15-17)
(9) The works of the flesh (Gal. 5:19)
(10) The world (1Jn. 2:15-17; Jas. 4:4)
(11) Vile affections (Rom. 1:26,29)
(12) The lusts of the mind (Eph. 2:3)
(13) The lusts of sin (Rom. 6:11-12)
(14) The motions of sins (Rom. 7:5)
(15) The law of sin and death (Rom. 7:7 -- Rom. 8:2)
(16) The carnal mind (Rom. 8:1-13)
(17) The god of this world (2Cor. 4:4)
(18) Spiritual wickedness in high places ... rulers of darkness (Eph. 6:12)
(19) The lusts of your father (Jn. 8:44)
(20) Sin that dwelleth in me (Rom. 7:17)
(21) The course of this world (Eph. 2:2)
(22) The body of the sins of the flesh (Col. 2:11; Gal. 5:24; Rom. 8)

2. Outward sin or transgression of the law (1Jn. 3:4; Rom. 4:15; Jas. 1:13-15). The outward acts are listed in Mk. 7:19-21; Rom. 1:18-32; 2Cor. 6:9-11; Gal. 5:19-21; Col. 3:5-10)

Both outward and inward sin must pass away or one cannot claim to be in Christ. The theory that only outward transgressions are forgiven and one is still under control of the old man (the devil) is one of the most erroneous doctrines in Christendom (2Cor. 5:17-18; Eph. 4:24; 1Jn. 5:18; Rom. 6:6-23; 8:1-13). See notes, 1Th. 4:3; 2Th. 2:13.
Finis Jennings Dake, Dake's Annotated Reference Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized or King James Version Text, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Bible Sales, Inc., 1997), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "Chapter 5".