Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ The passage all liberals hate!

[Justaned]

Never said God didn't say that, I simply said read the rest of the story. God never went.....

So then, are you saying that God lied or that He changed His mind?

Either way you have put yourself in a conundrum. If you say He lied then you are accusing HIm of being a liar. If you say that He changed His mind then you are an OPen Theist like me. You really don't want to be like me now do you? Sadly, you only have one other option and it is quite a scary one to me

I'm only saying what scripture says. You and Bibleman built the box you put God into you deal with how to handle it.

I have built NO box, only restated what GOD HIMSELF said.

Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

1) God can talk.
2) God has those who report to HIM what is going on on earth. (Angels)
3) God goes from place to place. (from heaven to earth and form place to place on earth)
4) The purpose in God going to Sodom and Gomorrah is to see what is going on.
5) God is checking for HIMSELF against the report that has been given to HIM. (before God destroys the cities HE must see for HIMSELF)
6) God is open to accepting the report or rejecting the report based on what HE HIMSELF sees. (Remember Angels have been known to lie)
7) God will ONLY know when he sees for HIMSELF. (THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT GOD HIMSELF SAID)

If you have a problem with that then your problem is with GOD not with me.

The box you built and are totally aware you built it was implication that God only have rumors and didn't really know what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah thus disproving His Omniscience. That God being Omnipresent had to stop all come down to earth personally and view what was going on for HImself before he would know for sure.

Where is God's Omniscience, Omnipresence in your interpretation of the this story?

[cpbeller]

Ed, your world is the one that says God does not mean what He says. You have consistently held that position over and over again.

You used this silly example of a nuclear physicist trying to explain something to me. That is...silly. God is not a nuclear physicist...He is God. And being God, He can explain whatever He feels He needs to explain in a way that does not, nor will it ever, include the fraying of the truth, like you constantly claim He does. God means exactly what He says, and He will not ever stretch the truth, or say something that is not truthful, just so we can understand it.

Again...God is not a "mystery novelist". What God has revealed about Himself to us, is truth. Why do you feel you need to say that God is not being truthful?

[Justaned]

What do we get from this Scripture!

Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

1) God can talk.
2) God has those who report to HIM what is going on on earth. (Angels)
3) God goes from place to place. (from heaven to earth and form place to place on earth)
4) The purpose in God going to Sodom and Gomorrah is to see what is going on.
5) God is checking for HIMSELF against the report that has been given to HIM. (before God destroys the cities HE must see for HIMSELF)
6) God is open to accepting the report or rejecting the report based on what HE HIMSELF sees. (Remember Angels have been known to lie)
7) God will ONLY know when he sees for HIMSELF. (THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT GOD HIMSELF SAID)

I love the simplicity of the Bible!

Read the rest of the story it never mentions God going into the city to See for HImself. Now what?

Plus verse 16 of chapter 18 implies God has already decided what He is going to do and decided to keep it from Abraham.

No I don't think this story proves anything one way or the other about God's Sovereignty or Omniscience.

Above you said: "Read the rest of the story it never mentions God going into the city to See for HImself. Now what?"

So did God lie?

21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

You built the box you deal with it. I don't see a lie but evidently you do. Fact God never went into the city to "see" for HImself.

[quote]"People lacking the ability to refute their opponents with fact or knowledge, instead they try to insult, ridicule, deride, slander, and traduce them, and in the use of these methods their followers are no less expert. Their polemic is directed never against the argument of the opponent, but always against his person."[/quote]

[Rocky]

I'm only saying what scripture says along with my opinionated interpretation. You and Bibleman told the truth but I have no rebuttal so I will acuse you tow by saying that you built the box you put God into you deal with how to handle it.

Made some corrections for you.

Once again "People lacking the ability to refute their opponents with fact or knowledge, instead they try to insult, ridicule, deride, slander, and traduce them, and in the use of these methods their followers are no less expert. Their polemic is directed never against the argument of the opponent, but always against his person."

[Justaned]

Ed, your world is the one that says God does not mean what He says. You have consistently held that position over and over again.

That is not my world that is world you try to insist I live in. In my world God says things not to challenge Himself or what he said previously so I don't even look for such things. I see God saying things to explain to man in terms man understands. God has declared himself omnipresent and omniscience. That is what you want to challenge by taking God's words and saying see God doesn't know all, or God isn't presence in all places at at all times.

You used this silly example of a nuclear physicist trying to explain something to me. That is...silly. God is not a nuclear physicist...He is God. And being God, He can explain whatever He feels He needs to explain in a way that does not, nor will it ever, include the fraying of the truth, like you constantly claim He does. God means exactly what He says, and He will not ever stretch the truth, or say something that is not truthful, just so we can understand it.

Okay fit omnipresence and omniscience into your intepretation of what God said then.

Again...God is not a "mystery novelist". What God has revealed about Himself to us, is truth. Why do you feel you need to say that God is not being truthful?

And God revealed himself to be omnipresent and omniscience that is first and foremost. Those two aspects preclude that God lacks knowledge of a situation and must go inspect it. So with that basis explain how this all comes together in your interpretation of the passage. I'm willing to learn teach me.

[Justaned]

I'm only saying what scripture says along with my opinionated interpretation. You and Bibleman told the truth but I have no rebuttal so I will acuse you tow by saying that you built the box you put God into you deal with how to handle it.

Made some corrections for you.

Once again "People lacking the ability to refute their opponents with fact or knowledge, instead they try to insult, ridicule, deride, slander, and traduce them, and in the use of these methods their followers are no less expert. Their polemic is directed never against the argument of the opponent, but always against his person."

editted out unkind reference

[Rocky]

I'm only saying what scripture says along with my opinionated interpretation. You and Bibleman told the truth but I have no rebuttal so I will acuse you tow by saying that you built the box you put God into you deal with how to handle it.

Made some corrections for you.

Once again "People lacking the ability to refute their opponents with fact or knowledge, instead they try to insult, ridicule, deride, slander, and traduce them, and in the use of these methods their followers are no less expert. Their polemic is directed never against the argument of the opponent, but always against his person."

Every village has one.

Lol I just want you know I am just kidding around and I actually like you. I know we disagree on a lot and I will try not to attack you personally. Accept for when I am joking . I also want to publicly say I apologize for really getting on to you yesterday and I was wrong in my replies and responses. Like I said before I believe you to be a person of integrity and I know you love the Lord. There is a way to discuss and debate in a Christian manner and all of us are guilty of being personal. Ok carry on with the discussions guys

[Grandfather]

While indeed the text says or makes the implication that God can:
1) God can talk.
2) God has those who report to HIM what is going on on earth. (Angels)
3) God goes from place to place. (from heaven to earth and form place to place on earth)
4) The purpose in God going to Sodom and Gomorrah is to see what is going on.
5) God is checking for HIMSELF against the report that has been given to HIM. (before God destroys the cities HE must see for HIMSELF)
6) God is open to accepting the report or rejecting the report based on what HE HIMSELF sees. (Remember Angels have been known to lie)
7) God will ONLY know when he sees for HIMSELF. (THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT GOD HIMSELF SAID)

Some of the implications are in contrast with what the Psalmist wrote in Psalm 139:
"Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
If I take the wings of the morning, And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, Even there Your hand shall lead me, And Your right hand shall hold me."

According to the Psalmist - wherever he goes God is already there. I guess if the Psalmist wrote -- if I go to Sodom I will have to wait for God to show, because he is not already there it would have been more accurate.

So, while I appreciate and understand your position on this passage in Gen, its literal reading conflicts with the literal reading of Psa 139. What you've put forth would require one to be true and the other false, or possibly one to be literally true and the other is not to be taken literally. Now, if you take the second position, please explain why Gen is literally true and Psalm not. And please don't use a circular argument, start from the position that both are literally true.

[cpbeller]

Ed, I honestly do not know, other than to say God is not a liar, and He means EVERY WORD He speaks. How God can be omniscient, yes need to go and see for Himself things...I don't know.

What I do know is I do not agree with your teaching that God is telling falsehoods to explain something. He told Abraham that he knew now what Abraham would do. He said He would go and see for Himself if the reports of Sodom and Gomorrah ' s sin was true. He has also said He is omniscient and omnipresent. Only God can know how He can know all things yet not know something. But I do know He did not lie when He said any of those statements.

[bibleman]

While indeed the text says or makes the implication that God can:
1) God can talk.
2) God has those who report to HIM what is going on on earth. (Angels)
3) God goes from place to place. (from heaven to earth and form place to place on earth)
4) The purpose in God going to Sodom and Gomorrah is to see what is going on.
5) God is checking for HIMSELF against the report that has been given to HIM. (before God destroys the cities HE must see for HIMSELF)
6) God is open to accepting the report or rejecting the report based on what HE HIMSELF sees. (Remember Angels have been known to lie)
7) God will ONLY know when he sees for HIMSELF. (THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT GOD HIMSELF SAID)

Some of the implications are in contrast with what the Psalmist wrote in Psalm 139:
"Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
If I take the wings of the morning, And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, Even there Your hand shall lead me, And Your right hand shall hold me."

According to the Psalmist - wherever he goes God is already there. I guess if the Psalmist wrote -- if I go to Sodom I will have to wait for God to show, because he is not already there it would have been more accurate.

So, while I appreciate and understand your position on this passage in Gen, its literal reading conflicts with the literal reading of Psa 139. What you've put forth would require one to be true and the other false, or possibly one to be literally true and the other is not to be taken literally. Now, if you take the second position, please explain why Gen is literally true and Psalm not. And please don't use a circular argument, start from the position that both are literally true.

Hi Grandfather,

The Bible NEVER says that God's body is in Hell but HIS spirit.

In what sense is God in hell? In the same sense that His presence is everywhere. His personal body is not in hell and never has been there except to create it (Mt. 25:41), as far as we know. Christ went to Sheol during the three days and three nights His body was in the tomb (Ps. 16:10; Mt. 12:40; Acts. 2:25-32; Eph. 4:8-10; 1Pet. 3:19). Though God's personal body is only at one place at a time, His presence is felt in all parts of the universe. No man can escape His presence even though he cannot see God's body due to the distance from earth to heaven where He dwells.
Finis Jennings Dake, Dake's Annotated Reference Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized or King James Version Text, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Bible Sales, Inc., 1997), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "Psalm 139".

Read Psalms 139:7-10 again!