Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ GOD IS IN CONTROL

[Justaned]

No matter how I try I fail to understand the stance that God isn't in control taken by people that admittedly pray.

If you don't think God has control enough to change things why would you pray for God to change something?

If you think God's control only extends to somethings, do you insure you exclude them from your prayer?

Example you taking a trip don't you pray for God's mercy and protection on that trip? (If you don't you should)

Or do you pray God send your mercy and protection with us as we travel I fully understand you can't protect me from bad decisions made by others, can't protect me from the lazy mechanic that installed my brakes and lack of wisdom of the road engineer that designed the roads I will travel on. So if I'm killed by drunk driver, a mechanical failure or a situation due to poor design you God are off the hook as I really didn't expect your protection in any of these situations?

Are you serious? Is that how you pray? Is that really how you feel?

[bibleman]

No matter how I try I fail to understand the stance that God isn't in control taken by people that admittedly pray.

If you don't think God has control enough to change things why would you pray for God to change something?

If you think God's control only extends to somethings, do you insure you exclude them from your prayer?

Example you taking a trip don't you pray for God's mercy and protection on that trip? (If you don't you should)

Or do you pray God send your mercy and protection with us as we travel I fully understand you can't protect me from bad decisions made by others, can't protect me from the lazy mechanic that installed my brakes and lack of wisdom of the road engineer that designed the roads I will travel on. So if I'm killed by drunk driver, a mechanical failure or a situation due to poor design you God are off the hook as I really didn't expect your protection in any of these situations?

Are you serious? Is that how you pray? Is that really how you feel?

Ed,

What you fail to understand or accept is the fact that God has given to man the power of choice. Sometimes man chooses what God wills and sometimes man does NOT choose according to God's will. When man sins he is responsible for his own sin. God did NOT make (control) him to do it.

It seems very simple to me.

It is simply an unwillingness of Calvinist like yourself, to accept the Biblical truth of man's responsibility for his own actions, rather than trying to blame it on God.

[victoryword]

No matter how I try I fail to understand the stance that God isn't in control taken by people that admittedly pray.

If you don't think God has control enough to change things why would you pray for God to change something?

If you think God's control only extends to somethings, do you insure you exclude them from your prayer?

Example you taking a trip don't you pray for God's mercy and protection on that trip? (If you don't you should)

Or do you pray God send your mercy and protection with us as we travel I fully understand you can't protect me from bad decisions made by others, can't protect me from the lazy mechanic that installed my brakes and lack of wisdom of the road engineer that designed the roads I will travel on. So if I'm killed by drunk driver, a mechanical failure or a situation due to poor design you God are off the hook as I really didn't expect your protection in any of these situations?

Are you serious? Is that how you pray? Is that really how you feel?

My response to such questions is that if God is controlling everything then why waste time praying. His will is being done anyway so what is there to pray for. If God exercises His sovereignty in that He controls every minute detail of everything that is happening in the universe then asking Him to intervene is a waste of time.

I pray because we are in a battle with spiritual forces that are opposed to the kingdom of God and since I am a part of that kingdom those forces are often arrayed against me. Since God has given every man freedom and will not intervene until He is asked to do so, then I pray in order to invite Him in to the situation, use His great power to enable me to overcome those hostile forces that attempt to afflict with sickness, disease, trouble, accidents, failure, accusation, barriers against successful soul-winning, etc. If God is in so much control and this world is in the awful mess that it is in then God would have to be the most chaotic individual in existence. He has to be very haphazard. If this world represents God's control then never blame another political leader for the mess that our political system is experiencing right now.

[titus213]

Psalm 8 - What God intended when he created man:

"For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet."

But notice how it is quoted in Hebrews 2, with a comment that points out the fact that man has forfeited his God-given dominion. Over fallen man in his fallen world, God is no longer in control. He is still in charge of the ultimate plan and purpose for the world, but he is no longer in control. Man handed his dominion over to God's arch-enemy, who is the ruler of this world:

"For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.
But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man that thou visitest him?
Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands: Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him.

But now we see not yet all things put under him.

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man."

As Dake points out frequently, man handed over his dominion there in the Garden. The human race, apart from grace, is now under the dominion of Satan.

The reason Calvin saw God as being in absolute control of all events was because he denied that Satan was still loose in the world or that he could act independently of God. Calvin also denied a future earthly kingdom of God on earth. He believed Satan was already bound, and that the kingdom of God (by which he meant the church) was already in the world and would just continue to grow until it dominated the world.

[Justaned]

No matter how I try I fail to understand the stance that God isn't in control taken by people that admittedly pray.

If you don't think God has control enough to change things why would you pray for God to change something?

If you think God's control only extends to somethings, do you insure you exclude them from your prayer?

Example you taking a trip don't you pray for God's mercy and protection on that trip? (If you don't you should)

Or do you pray God send your mercy and protection with us as we travel I fully understand you can't protect me from bad decisions made by others, can't protect me from the lazy mechanic that installed my brakes and lack of wisdom of the road engineer that designed the roads I will travel on. So if I'm killed by drunk driver, a mechanical failure or a situation due to poor design you God are off the hook as I really didn't expect your protection in any of these situations?

Are you serious? Is that how you pray? Is that really how you feel?

Ed,

What you fail to understand or accept is the fact that God has given to man the power of choice. Sometimes man chooses what God wills and sometimes man does NOT choose according to God's will. When man sins he is responsible for his own sin. God did NOT make (control) him to do it.

It seems very simple to me.

It is simply an unwillingness of Calvinist like yourself, to accept the Biblical truth of man's responsibility for his own actions, rather than trying to blame it on God.

Where did I ever deny man's free will choice?

[bibleman]

No matter how I try I fail to understand the stance that God isn't in control taken by people that admittedly pray.

If you don't think God has control enough to change things why would you pray for God to change something?

If you think God's control only extends to somethings, do you insure you exclude them from your prayer?

Example you taking a trip don't you pray for God's mercy and protection on that trip? (If you don't you should)

Or do you pray God send your mercy and protection with us as we travel I fully understand you can't protect me from bad decisions made by others, can't protect me from the lazy mechanic that installed my brakes and lack of wisdom of the road engineer that designed the roads I will travel on. So if I'm killed by drunk driver, a mechanical failure or a situation due to poor design you God are off the hook as I really didn't expect your protection in any of these situations?

Are you serious? Is that how you pray? Is that really how you feel?

Ed,

What you fail to understand or accept is the fact that God has given to man the power of choice. Sometimes man chooses what God wills and sometimes man does NOT choose according to God's will. When man sins he is responsible for his own sin. God did NOT make (control) him to do it.

It seems very simple to me.

It is simply an unwillingness of Calvinist like yourself, to accept the Biblical truth of man's responsibility for his own actions, rather than trying to blame it on God.

Where did I ever deny man's free will choice?

When you make God in control of man... then of course man no longer has a free will ... since he is being controlled by God (according to you.)

[Justaned]

My response to such questions is that if God is controlling everything then why waste time praying. His will is being done anyway so what is there to pray for. If God exercises His sovereignty in that He controls every minute detail of everything that is happening in the universe then asking Him to intervene is a waste of time.

I pray because I was commanded to. I pray because God told us even though He knows our need God still requires us to come to Him in prayer and to ask for it. I pray not my will but God's will be done. I pray that I may be strengthen by the Holy Spirit to resist temptation.

Since God has given every man freedom and will not intervene until He is asked to do so,

That is not true God often intervenes without first being asked.


No one especially me ever said or implied God controls every minute detail I have always asserted man has free will choice.

So you have never explained why you pray if you don't think God can do anything you simply told us how you respond to the question by asking another question.

[Justaned]

No matter how I try I fail to understand the stance that God isn't in control taken by people that admittedly pray.

If you don't think God has control enough to change things why would you pray for God to change something?

If you think God's control only extends to somethings, do you insure you exclude them from your prayer?

Example you taking a trip don't you pray for God's mercy and protection on that trip? (If you don't you should)

Or do you pray God send your mercy and protection with us as we travel I fully understand you can't protect me from bad decisions made by others, can't protect me from the lazy mechanic that installed my brakes and lack of wisdom of the road engineer that designed the roads I will travel on. So if I'm killed by drunk driver, a mechanical failure or a situation due to poor design you God are off the hook as I really didn't expect your protection in any of these situations?

Are you serious? Is that how you pray? Is that really how you feel?

Ed,

What you fail to understand or accept is the fact that God has given to man the power of choice. Sometimes man chooses what God wills and sometimes man does NOT choose according to God's will. When man sins he is responsible for his own sin. God did NOT make (control) him to do it.

It seems very simple to me.

It is simply an unwillingness of Calvinist like yourself, to accept the Biblical truth of man's responsibility for his own actions, rather than trying to blame it on God.

Where did I ever deny man's free will choice?

When you make God in control of man... then of course man no longer has a free will ... since he is being controlled by God (according to you.)

When did I say God was in control of man's choice? I said God controls the consequences of man's choice but not in man's ability to make that choice.

[Justaned]

A drunk goes out and runs into a tree.

In one example the drunk is paralyzed and must live his life in a wheelchair.

In another example the drunk is killed out right and his family suffers a lost.

In the another the drunk is totally without injury.

In the last case 99.9% of the church will say it was miracle wought at the hand of God. In the other two cases people blame luck, fate, the bartender that served him, the drunk, Satan, the demon of alcohol, tree demons, you name it.

Why was it God that saved him but everything but it wasn't God that allowed him to be paralyzed or killed? Total nonsense.

Our actions, Our decision carry consequences and those consequences are controlled by God.

[Justaned]

Psalm 8 - What God intended when he created man:

"For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet."

But notice how it is quoted in Hebrews 2, with a comment that points out the fact that man has forfeited his God-given dominion. Over fallen man in his fallen world, God is no longer in control. He is still in charge of the ultimate plan and purpose for the world, but he is no longer in control. Man handed his dominion over to God's arch-enemy, who is the ruler of this world:

Would you show me where in Hebrews that is said. I see nothing about God not being in control. The fact God gave man dominion or to be over something does not in any way say God abdicated His existing absolute control. Only that man was given power under Him.

The reason Calvin saw God as being in absolute control of all events was because he denied that Satan was still loose in the world or that he could act independently of God. Calvin also denied a future earthly kingdom of God on earth. He believed Satan was already bound, and that the kingdom of God (by which he meant the church) was already in the world and would just continue to grow until it dominated the world.

According to you. But the reason I believe God has absolute control is because scripture plainly declares it to be true and the fact I understand what dominion means. It does not mean someone has to give up his power only that he gives a degree of power to those under him to be able to have power also.

The fact man fail did not remove God's power, it changed the focus of man's power instead of serving the will of God man would serve his sin nature. Man would make Satan his god. But the fact man makes Satan his god does not change the fact that God is God. Nothing can change that.

Jesus has given us the victory over sin. We can become new creations and serve God if we accept His salvation. Sin and Satan no longer has any control over us. The only control is what we allow we either follow the Spirit or we follow the flesh. There is no one to blame, no one to point at and say "the devil made me do it." It is all us, our flesh or our willingness to follow the Spirit that resides in us at salvation.