Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ KEEP REPENTING OR ETERNAL SECURITY?

[Grandfather]

Is there a position that instead of choosing either "keep repenting" or "eternal security" that BOTH positions can be embraced?

Those that oppose eternal security seem to think those that "believe" will go live life like heathens without every showing a need to turn from sinful actions.

Those that oppose "keep repenting" see the salvation that is so fragile it may be lost without even knowing that it is lost.

Could it be that salvation is more secure than one realizes, but that it is not so eternally fixed that it can be neglected? And while being neglected it cannot be expected to remain secure? And if neglected needs some repentance?

[Hill Top]

Fear is the opposite of faith and comes from ignorance of the Truth.

And yet, it is written..."The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: " (Pro 9:10)
Not all fear is bad.
There are a bunch more verses about fear in Proverbs...all t o the glory of God.

Please define what you mean by FEAR in the context of the statement FEAR of the Lord.

Thanks

Sure grandpop.
Respect, honor, submission, obedience, and of course fear.
Do you have more to add?

[Grandfather]

Fear is the opposite of faith and comes from ignorance of the Truth.

And yet, it is written..."The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: " (Pro 9:10)
Not all fear is bad.
There are a bunch more verses about fear in Proverbs...all t o the glory of God.

Please define what you mean by FEAR in the context of the statement FEAR of the Lord.

Thanks

Sure grandpop.
Respect, honor, submission, obedience, and of course fear.
Do you have more to add?

I was following with you until you added that last bit... "and of course fear"... which is the word I am attempting to understand how you are using Telling me fear means respect, honor, or even submission I can understand. But when you said "fear means fear" that tells me nothing.

So, please for my simple mind... what does fear of the Lord mean?

My wife fears snakes when she sees one she turns and runs the other way. Should I fear the Lord in the same way? Turn and run away? I personally have a fear of intense pain. I avoid it whenever I can. Should I fear the Lord in the same way? Avoiding Him where possible?

Using the information you have provided so far, I should turn and run from God, avoid Him at all costs. That would be demonstrating a fear of the Lord.

[Hill Top]

Is there a position that instead of choosing either "keep repenting" or "eternal security" that BOTH positions can be embraced?

Interesting thought, but I don't think there is a middle-ground on this.

Those that oppose eternal security seem to think those that "believe" will go live life like heathens without every showing a need to turn from sinful actions.

I feel the only use for this doctrine is the continuation of sin.
It releases the 'believer' from the fear of God.

Those that oppose "keep repenting" see the salvation that is so fragile it may be lost without even knowing that it is lost.

Personally, I don't believe any sin is an accident. Especially in the light of James 1:14-15.
It just takes too many conscious steps to reach "conception".

Could it be that salvation is more secure than one realizes, but that it is not so eternally fixed that it can be neglected? And while being neglected it cannot be expected to remain secure? And if neglected needs some repentance?

It is secure, if one loves God above all else and their neighbor as themselves...until the end.

[Hill Top]

Fear is the opposite of faith and comes from ignorance of the Truth.

And yet, it is written..."The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: " (Pro 9:10)
Not all fear is bad.
There are a bunch more verses about fear in Proverbs...all t o the glory of God.

Please define what you mean by FEAR in the context of the statement FEAR of the Lord.

Thanks

Sure grandpop.
Respect, honor, submission, obedience, and of course fear.
Do you have more to add?

I was following with you until you added that last bit... "and of course fear"... which is the word I am attempting to understand how you are using Telling me fear means respect, honor, or even submission I can understand. But when you said "fear means fear" that tells me nothing.
So, please for my simple mind... what does fear of the Lord mean?

Merriam-Webster says...Definition of fear...
1a: an unpleasant often strong emotion caused by anticipation or awareness of danger
b(1): an instance of this emotion
(2): a state marked by this emotion
2: anxious concern : SOLICITUDE
3: profound reverence and awe especially toward God
4: reason for alarm : DANGER

My wife fears snakes when she sees one she turns and runs the other way. Should I fear the Lord in the same way? Turn and run away? I personally have a fear of intense pain. I avoid it whenever I can. Should I fear the Lord in the same way? Avoiding Him where possible?

If you equate "fear" with a healthy respect for something or someone,
isn't that the same as a "profound reverence or awe"?

Using the information you have provided so far, I should turn and run from God, avoid Him at all costs. That would be demonstrating a fear of the Lord.

Seeing as it is impossible to do that, wouldn't it be wiser to always stay on His good side?
Facilitated by obedience and reverence, (not to mention the gift of the Holy Ghost), we can always remain in submission to Him.

[Grandfather]

Is there a position that instead of choosing either "keep repenting" or "eternal security" that BOTH positions can be embraced?

Interesting thought, but I don't think there is a middle-ground on this.

Those that oppose eternal security seem to think those that "believe" will go live life like heathens without every showing a need to turn from sinful actions.

I feel the only use for this doctrine is the continuation of sin.
It releases the 'believer' from the fear of God.

Those that oppose "keep repenting" see the salvation that is so fragile it may be lost without even knowing that it is lost.

Personally, I don't believe any sin is an accident. Especially in the light of James 1:14-15.
It just takes too many conscious steps to reach "conception".

Could it be that salvation is more secure than one realizes, but that it is not so eternally fixed that it can be neglected? And while being neglected it cannot be expected to remain secure? And if neglected needs some repentance?

It is secure, if one loves God above all else and their neighbor as themselves...until the end.

What I find interesting is that you mirrored the positions perfectly. You tended to the extremes in order to justify your position. I don't believe we should use extreme examples to justify positions.

[Grandfather]

Fear is the opposite of faith and comes from ignorance of the Truth.

And yet, it is written..."The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom: " (Pro 9:10)
Not all fear is bad.
There are a bunch more verses about fear in Proverbs...all t o the glory of God.

Please define what you mean by FEAR in the context of the statement FEAR of the Lord.

Thanks

Sure grandpop.
Respect, honor, submission, obedience, and of course fear.
Do you have more to add?

I was following with you until you added that last bit... "and of course fear"... which is the word I am attempting to understand how you are using Telling me fear means respect, honor, or even submission I can understand. But when you said "fear means fear" that tells me nothing.
So, please for my simple mind... what does fear of the Lord mean?

Merriam-Webster says...Definition of fear...
1a: an unpleasant often strong emotion caused by anticipation or awareness of danger
b(1): an instance of this emotion
(2): a state marked by this emotion
2: anxious concern : SOLICITUDE
3: profound reverence and awe especially toward God
4: reason for alarm : DANGER

My wife fears snakes when she sees one she turns and runs the other way. Should I fear the Lord in the same way? Turn and run away? I personally have a fear of intense pain. I avoid it whenever I can. Should I fear the Lord in the same way? Avoiding Him where possible?

If you equate "fear" with a healthy respect for something or someone,
isn't that the same as a "profound reverence or awe"?

Using the information you have provided so far, I should turn and run from God, avoid Him at all costs. That would be demonstrating a fear of the Lord.

Seeing as it is impossible to do that, wouldn't it be wiser to always stay on His good side?
Facilitated by obedience and reverence, (not to mention the gift of the Holy Ghost), we can always remain in submission to Him.

So, again using your information... one should have "an unpleasant often strong emotion caused by anticipation or awareness of danger" when approaching God. And this unpleasant emotion should be present even when one is on God's good side.

It would appear that your concept of "fear" runs afoul of the notion that God loved us even while we were sinful. His perfect love would cast out fear. Yet according to you one must fear.

[Hill Top]

Is there a position that instead of choosing either "keep repenting" or "eternal security" that BOTH positions can be embraced?

Interesting thought, but I don't think there is a middle-ground on this.

Those that oppose eternal security seem to think those that "believe" will go live life like heathens without every showing a need to turn from sinful actions.

I feel the only use for this doctrine is the continuation of sin.
It releases the 'believer' from the fear of God.

Those that oppose "keep repenting" see the salvation that is so fragile it may be lost without even knowing that it is lost.

Personally, I don't believe any sin is an accident. Especially in the light of James 1:14-15.
It just takes too many conscious steps to reach "conception".

Could it be that salvation is more secure than one realizes, but that it is not so eternally fixed that it can be neglected? And while being neglected it cannot be expected to remain secure? And if neglected needs some repentance?

It is secure, if one loves God above all else and their neighbor as themselves...until the end.

What I find interesting is that you mirrored the positions perfectly. You tended to the extremes in order to justify your position. I don't believe we should use extreme examples to justify positions.

Isn't loving God above all else "extreme"?
God's standards ARE extreme.
Christianity itself is extreme, as it separates us from the other extreme of the world's lusts and hate for God.
There is no "grey area" in Christianity.

[bibleman]

Is there a position that instead of choosing either "keep repenting" or "eternal security" that BOTH positions can be embraced?

Interesting thought, but I don't think there is a middle-ground on this.

Those that oppose eternal security seem to think those that "believe" will go live life like heathens without every showing a need to turn from sinful actions.

I feel the only use for this doctrine is the continuation of sin.
It releases the 'believer' from the fear of God.

Those that oppose "keep repenting" see the salvation that is so fragile it may be lost without even knowing that it is lost.

Personally, I don't believe any sin is an accident. Especially in the light of James 1:14-15.
It just takes too many conscious steps to reach "conception".

Could it be that salvation is more secure than one realizes, but that it is not so eternally fixed that it can be neglected? And while being neglected it cannot be expected to remain secure? And if neglected needs some repentance?

It is secure, if one loves God above all else and their neighbor as themselves...until the end.

What I find interesting is that you mirrored the positions perfectly. You tended to the extremes in order to justify your position. I don't believe we should use extreme examples to justify positions.

Isn't loving God above all else "extreme"?
God's standards ARE extreme.
Christianity itself is extreme, as it separates us from the other extreme of the world's lusts and hate for God.
There is no "grey area" in Christianity.

Pardon me but if you loved God to the extreme don't you think that your fears would be gone? After all "There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love." 1 John 4:18

And if there are no gray areas in Christianity then why are you scared that something MIGHT happen?

Seems that you have a theology and then you have the way you live which are two separate things.

Which in reality is sinful which you need to repent of and forsake!

[Hill Top]

So, please for my simple mind... what does fear of the Lord mean?

Merriam-Webster says...Definition of fear...
1a: an unpleasant often strong emotion caused by anticipation or awareness of danger
b(1): an instance of this emotion
(2): a state marked by this emotion
2: anxious concern : SOLICITUDE
3: profound reverence and awe especially toward God
4: reason for alarm : DANGER

My wife fears snakes when she sees one she turns and runs the other way. Should I fear the Lord in the same way? Turn and run away? I personally have a fear of intense pain. I avoid it whenever I can. Should I fear the Lord in the same way? Avoiding Him where possible?

If you equate "fear" with a healthy respect for something or someone,
isn't that the same as a "profound reverence or awe"?

Using the information you have provided so far, I should turn and run from God, avoid Him at all costs. That would be demonstrating a fear of the Lord.

Seeing as it is impossible to do that, wouldn't it be wiser to always stay on His good side?
Facilitated by obedience and reverence, (not to mention the gift of the Holy Ghost), we can always remain in submission to Him.
[/quote]

So, again using your information... one should have "an unpleasant often strong emotion caused by anticipation or awareness of danger" when approaching God. And this unpleasant emotion should be present even when one is on God's good side. [/quote]
Why did you choose option 1a instead of option 3?

It would appear that your concept of "fear" runs afoul of the notion that God loved us even while we were sinful. His perfect love would cast out fear. Yet according to you one must fear.

According to me?
It is written...Proverbs 1:7 "The fear of the Lord is the beginning of knowledge: but fools despise wisdom and instruction."
Proverbs 1:29 " For that they hated knowledge, and did not choose the fear of the Lord:"
Proverbs 2:5 "Then shalt thou understand the fear of the Lord, and find the knowledge of God."
Proverbs 8:13 "The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way,"

There is a difference between fearing God and fearing judgement.