Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Finis Dake's View of Spirtual Warfare

[bibleman]

No the difference between you and me is I'm not deceived into believing what man says over scripture. If scripture does not confirm a man's teaching I reject it. I don't try to justify it by grabbing a verse here and a verse there to prove the point.
That is the difference between you and me.

You have believed what someone said about Kenyon, I showed you from Kenyon's own words that he was not what you claimed, and now this is your response? Oh Ed, you really are a troll. You know, it is fun having these banters with you but at the same time I really wonder about your mental health.

Have a nice day Ed. I need a break from this silliness of yours.

Of course Kenyon when pressed is going to deny he is anything but a man of God. That is what he wants people to think.
And depending on his deception he might even believe it himself. However I have read Kenyon and he is most definitely into metaphysics.

Having spent many weeks of study of Kenyon's works for course preparation I believe I'm fully aware of Kenyon false teaching. To my shame I once use his falsehoods to teach half truths and falsehoods. I have since repented and asked and received forgiveness for this. If this wasn't the case there would have been no need for God to forgive me, yet God assured me that he saw the deception, and has seen my repentance and therefore God would forgive me.

So while you call it silliness I call it life and death for those that get caught up in the lies of metaphysical teachings of Kenyon.

Hi Ed,

Sorry but your ignorance concerning Kenyon is showing big time.

You should really stay away from subjects that you know nothing about.

[Rocky]

Ok, been looking at this thread closely. First of all Ed, I have not seen anywere that anyone said we have power over Satan, demons, or any other spiritual darkness in ourselves. And sorry for the poopie pants thing I am a goofy person, and I meant nothing malicious about it. And I believe when my self and others are saying we have authority over satan we are not saying that out of boasting in our own human strength. Having power and authority over the forces of darkness as a Christian is a simple biblical truth.

And to Billy I don't see this as being a bully, I think people are just tring to correct a horrific teaching, which is what the apostles did back in their day. If you are talking about Ed, well maybe I should have not called him a poopie pants lol. I have a very weird sence of humor, I am extremely goofy and random some times. Actually I see it as people trying to help. Ed is claiming that a Christians has no power or authority through Christ over the devil. Almost like we are satans whipping post. I take that very serious despite my goofiness. You may need to go back and read some of his comments on this thread. He has said that we have no battles with satan that there is no spiritual warfare. And that the Christian has no power over satan when anyone with any common sense with scripture knows otherwise. Now I know you don't believe that either. I just get worried because Ed is a preacher and this is really harmful stuff to say the things he is saying. I mean this stuff is so far out there that I don't even know how to discuss and debate something so crazy sounding, to put it bluntly. Now Ed is smart no doubt about that, but being smart and having the spiritual ability to discern something is two different things. The bible says we have an anointing that leads and guides us into truth. And I believe what Ed is saying is very false and almost demonic. Even using tempting tactics and saying things like "Did the Bible or those verses really say that". which is what satan said in the garden. Discernment cannot be taught or even studied because it is a gift.

[victoryword]

And I believe what Ed is saying is very false and almost demonic. Even using tempting tactics and saying things like "Did the Bible or those verses really say that". which is what satan said in the garden. Discernment cannot be taught or even studied because it is a gift.

Leave out the "almost" and we are in 100% agreement. Who else would want to cast any doubt about our authority over the devil except the devil. That is part of the point of Joe McIntyre's teaching in the video I linked earlier.

[victoryword]

Of course Kenyon when pressed is going to deny he is anything but a man of God. That is what he wants people to think.

Ed, no one ever made those accusations about Kenyon during his day. He was well received in both Pentecostal and Evangelical churches. The accusations about Kenyon were made about 20 or 30 years after he died. It was a man named D. R. McConnell who first propagated this lie about Kenyon in his book, "A Different Gospel" and Hanegraaff made the lie more popular in his book "Christianity in Crisis".

However, both defenders and critics of Kenyon have repudiated this lie. Among the critics is Robert Bowman who wrote the book "The Word-Faith Controversy". Bowman wrote very sharp critiques of the Faith Movement and I vehemently disagree with him but he at least disregards the idea that Kenyon was involved in cultic practices and believes that Kenyon was an Evangelical.

Another critic is professor Simmons who wrote the book, "EW Kenyon and the Postbellum Pursuit of Power". Simmons attended ORU with D. R. McConnell and they worked on the Kenyon project together. They were both pursuing the idea that Kenyon was involved in Metaphysical cults. However, Simmons began discovering that there was way too much evidence that Kenyon was primarily influenced by Evangelicals and tried to show this to McConnell who would not listen to him. So they split. Simmons is absolutely no fan of the Faith MOvement so his defense of Kenyon in this area is not bias.

One other critic of the Faith Movement who repudiates the idea that Kenyon was a metaphysician is Bruce Barron in his book, "The Health and Wealth Gospel". Barron critiques the faith movement but disagrees with McConnell's thesis about Kenyon. Barron simply believes that the WoF is a Pentecostal Movement that has gone overboard. While I disagree with Barron, at least he does not accept the lies about Kenyon.

There is one other critic's book that I have that disputes the Metaphysical claims but I don't feel like looking it up right now. Also Ed, just to let you know, I am not writing this post to convince you but to help any one who may be reading these posts and might have doubts after reading your post. If WoF critics dispute these false ideas about Kenyon then I would have to say that the source of this information about Kenyon is questionable, wouldn't you? Especially if the primary sources own former partner repudiates this false idea about Kenyon.

[Justaned]

Ok, been looking at this thread closely. First of all Ed, I have not seen anywere that anyone said we have power over Satan, demons, or any other spiritual darkness in ourselves. And sorry for the poopie pants thing I am a goofy person, and I meant nothing malicious about it. And I believe when my self and others are saying we have authority over satan we are not saying that out of boasting in our own human strength. Having power and authority over the forces of darkness as a Christian is a simple biblical truth.

And to Billy I don't see this as being a bully, I think people are just tring to correct a horrific teaching, which is what the apostles did back in their day. If you are talking about Ed, well maybe I should have not called him a poopie pants lol. I have a very weird sence of humor, I am extremely goofy and random some times. Actually I see it as people trying to help. Ed is claiming that a Christians has no power or authority through Christ over the devil. Almost like we are satans whipping post. I take that very serious despite my goofiness. You may need to go back and read some of his comments on this thread. He has said that we have no battles with satan that there is no spiritual warfare. And that the Christian has no power over satan when anyone with any common sense with scripture knows otherwise. Now I know you don't believe that either. I just get worried because Ed is a preacher and this is really harmful stuff to say the things he is saying. I mean this stuff is so far out there that I don't even know how to discuss and debate something so crazy sounding, to put it bluntly. Now Ed is smart no doubt about that, but being smart and having the spiritual ability to discern something is two different things. The bible says we have an anointing that leads and guides us into truth. And I believe what Ed is saying is very false and almost demonic. Even using tempting tactics and saying things like "Did the Bible or those verses really say that". which is what satan said in the garden. Discernment cannot be taught or even studied because it is a gift.

Rocky
First what stuff am I saying that is so far out?

Now here is a quote from this thread.

I get this feeling like God is still trying to fight in order to win a battle and that we are fighting in order to get a victory, all with the strong possibility that we and God might lose a few of them. Then I read passages of Scripture where we are told that Satan is defeated, we have authority over him,

Let us go through this together.

Where does scripture say we have authority over Satan? I have never seen it nor have you because it is not in scripture.

That and that alone has been my point all along. You and others have tried to suggest what was really meant was that any victory we realize is really in Christ's and we become partakers in it. But the person that made this statement and others have been adamant that that they have authority over Satan. To which I say NO WAY.

Also a point that I have been combating is over what some call spiritual warfare.

So I posted these two verses which speak directly to spiritual warfare.

Jude 1:5-11 (NKJV)
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

2 Peter 2:1-22 (NKJV)
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;
7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked
8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)--
9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries,
11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
13 and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you,
14 having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children.
15 They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16 but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man's voice restrained the madness of the prophet.
17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

First I was told this has nothing to do with spiritual warfare and then they denied they did this. These passages do speak to railing at Satan as the "spiritual warfare" teachers they cling to teaches. We are to have no communication with Satan other than saying, " the Lord Rebuke you." For all the rest is fluff and Satan knows it.

Read the two above passages, this is deadly serious business life and death. If false teacher lead you astray the excuse I didn't know will not work. You now know and you should have before by reading these passages.

You excuse your use of frivolous terms as your way of being silly.

Rocky this is life and death.

Satan is like a roaring lion seeking to devour those that aren't sober in the spirit.

These same false prophets then tossed at me

James 4:7 (NKJV)
7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

Saying this proves that they have the authority over Satan.

This says nothing of the kind in fact it indicts them and their words. It says draw near to God resisting Satan and he will flee. It is God that has the authority over Satan not mortal man.

Then to top this all off the launch into attacks on me personally saying all sort of things in direct defiance of

James 4:10-12 (NKJV)
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.
11 Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.
12 There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?

Do you see the first verse HUMBLE yourself. Do you see humility in any of the responses to me? No you know why because they are like these described in James

Jude 1:10-11 (NKJV)
10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

I said we know nothing of spiritual realm of Satan, you even responded that we do. What do we know? That it exists, that at times God's messengers are opposed and Archangels must come to the rescue. that

Ephesians 6:12 (NKJV)
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

And that we are to

Ephesians 6:13-18 (NKJV)
13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;
18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints--

That is basically all we really know.

In this last passage do you see any mention of us performing spiritual warfare? Or that we should be talking to Satan? Or even thinking of him? It clearly says praying and always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit. Notice it says Spirit why? Because we don't know anything about the spirit realm and we need the Spirit to guide us in prayer. That is spiritual warfare not shaking our fist and telling Satan what we are going to do or what he should do. That is nonsense.

Rocky I have been more than patient with you. I supplied scripture and verse in context for everything I have said. I have tried to explain clearly and openly using scripture to support my position. Please do not tell me I'm doing damage to baby Christians for I speak only what is found in the Word of God.

[Justaned]

Ok, been looking at this thread closely. First of all Ed, I have not seen anywere that anyone said we have power over Satan, demons, or any other spiritual darkness in ourselves. And sorry for the poopie pants thing I am a goofy person, and I meant nothing malicious about it. And I believe when my self and others are saying we have authority over satan we are not saying that out of boasting in our own human strength. Having power and authority over the forces of darkness as a Christian is a simple biblical truth.

And to Billy I don't see this as being a bully, I think people are just tring to correct a horrific teaching, which is what the apostles did back in their day. If you are talking about Ed, well maybe I should have not called him a poopie pants lol. I have a very weird sence of humor, I am extremely goofy and random some times. Actually I see it as people trying to help. Ed is claiming that a Christians has no power or authority through Christ over the devil. Almost like we are satans whipping post. I take that very serious despite my goofiness. You may need to go back and read some of his comments on this thread. He has said that we have no battles with satan that there is no spiritual warfare. And that the Christian has no power over satan when anyone with any common sense with scripture knows otherwise. Now I know you don't believe that either. I just get worried because Ed is a preacher and this is really harmful stuff to say the things he is saying. I mean this stuff is so far out there that I don't even know how to discuss and debate something so crazy sounding, to put it bluntly. Now Ed is smart no doubt about that, but being smart and having the spiritual ability to discern something is two different things. The bible says we have an anointing that leads and guides us into truth. And I believe what Ed is saying is very false and almost demonic. Even using tempting tactics and saying things like "Did the Bible or those verses really say that". which is what satan said in the garden. Discernment cannot be taught or even studied because it is a gift.

Rocky
First what stuff am I saying that is so far out?

Now here is a quote from this thread.

I get this feeling like God is still trying to fight in order to win a battle and that we are fighting in order to get a victory, all with the strong possibility that we and God might lose a few of them. Then I read passages of Scripture where we are told that Satan is defeated, we have authority over him,

Let us go through this together.

Where does scripture say we have authority over Satan? I have never seen it nor have you because it is not in scripture.

That and that alone has been my point all along. You and others have tried to suggest what was really meant was that any victory we realize is really in Christ's and we become partakers in it. But the person that made this statement and others have been adamant that that they have authority over Satan. To which I say NO WAY.

Also a point that I have been combating is over what some call spiritual warfare.

So I posted these two verses which speak directly to spiritual warfare.

Jude 1:5-11 (NKJV)
5 But I want to remind you, though you once knew this, that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe.
6 And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;
7 as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.
8 Likewise also these dreamers defile the flesh, reject authority, and speak evil of dignitaries.
9 Yet Michael the archangel, in contending with the devil, when he disputed about the body of Moses, dared not bring against him a reviling accusation, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!"
10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

2 Peter 2:1-22 (NKJV)
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Lord who bought them, and bring on themselves swift destruction.
2 And many will follow their destructive ways, because of whom the way of truth will be blasphemed.
3 By covetousness they will exploit you with deceptive words; for a long time their judgment has not been idle, and their destruction does not slumber.
4 For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;
5 and did not spare the ancient world, but saved Noah, one of eight people, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood on the world of the ungodly;
6 and turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah into ashes, condemned them to destruction, making them an example to those who afterward would live ungodly;
7 and delivered righteous Lot, who was oppressed by the filthy conduct of the wicked
8 (for that righteous man, dwelling among them, tormented his righteous soul from day to day by seeing and hearing their lawless deeds)--
9 then the Lord knows how to deliver the godly out of temptations and to reserve the unjust under punishment for the day of judgment,
10 and especially those who walk according to the flesh in the lust of uncleanness and despise authority. They are presumptuous, self-willed. They are not afraid to speak evil of dignitaries,
11 whereas angels, who are greater in power and might, do not bring a reviling accusation against them before the Lord.
12 But these, like natural brute beasts made to be caught and destroyed, speak evil of the things they do not understand, and will utterly perish in their own corruption,
13 and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you,
14 having eyes full of adultery and that cannot cease from sin, enticing unstable souls. They have a heart trained in covetous practices, and are accursed children.
15 They have forsaken the right way and gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Beor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
16 but he was rebuked for his iniquity: a dumb donkey speaking with a man's voice restrained the madness of the prophet.
17 These are wells without water, clouds carried by a tempest, for whom is reserved the blackness of darkness forever.
18 For when they speak great swelling words of emptiness, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through lewdness, the ones who have actually escaped from those who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are slaves of corruption; for by whom a person is overcome, by him also he is brought into bondage.
20 For if, after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the latter end is worse for them than the beginning.
21 For it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than having known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered to them.
22 But it has happened to them according to the true proverb: "A dog returns to his own vomit," and, "a sow, having washed, to her wallowing in the mire."

First I was told this has nothing to do with spiritual warfare and then they denied they did this. These passages do speak to railing at Satan as the "spiritual warfare" teachers they cling to teaches. We are to have no communication with Satan other than saying, " the Lord Rebuke you." For all the rest is fluff and Satan knows it.

Read the two above passages, this is deadly serious business life and death. If false teacher lead you astray the excuse I didn't know will not work. You now know and you should have before by reading these passages.

You excuse your use of frivolous terms as your way of being silly.

Rocky this is life and death.

Satan is like a roaring lion seeking to devour those that aren't sober in the spirit.

These same false prophets then tossed at me

James 4:7 (NKJV)
7 Therefore submit to God. Resist the devil and he will flee from you.

Saying this proves that they have the authority over Satan.

This says nothing of the kind in fact it indicts them and their words. It says draw near to God resisting Satan and he will flee. It is God that has the authority over Satan not mortal man.

Then to top this all off the launch into attacks on me personally saying all sort of things in direct defiance of

James 4:10-12 (NKJV)
10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and He will lift you up.
11 Do not speak evil of one another, brethren. He who speaks evil of a brother and judges his brother, speaks evil of the law and judges the law. But if you judge the law, you are not a doer of the law but a judge.
12 There is one Lawgiver, who is able to save and to destroy. Who are you to judge another?

Do you see the first verse HUMBLE yourself. Do you see humility in any of the responses to me? No you know why because they are like these described in James

Jude 1:10-11 (NKJV)
10 But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves.
11 Woe to them! For they have gone in the way of Cain, have run greedily in the error of Balaam for profit, and perished in the rebellion of Korah.

I said we know nothing of spiritual realm of Satan, you even responded that we do. What do we know? That it exists, that at times God's messengers are opposed and Archangels must come to the rescue. that

Ephesians 6:12 (NKJV)
12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.

And that we are to

Ephesians 6:13-18 (NKJV)
13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth, having put on the breastplate of righteousness,
15 and having shod your feet with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God;
18 praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, being watchful to this end with all perseverance and supplication for all the saints--

That is basically all we really know.

In this last passage do you see any mention of us performing spiritual warfare? Or that we should be talking to Satan? Or even thinking of him? It clearly says praying and always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit. Notice it says Spirit why? Because we don't know anything about the spirit realm and we need the Spirit to guide us in prayer. That is spiritual warfare not shaking our fist and telling Satan what we are going to do or what he should do. That is nonsense.

Rocky I have been more than patient with you. I supplied scripture and verse in context for everything I have said. I have tried to explain clearly and openly using scripture to support my position. Please do not tell me I'm doing damage to baby Christians for I speak only what is found in the Word of God.

[branham1965]

i need to clarify this.i care for people on both sides of this.and i hope we can try to be civil to each other.
ive known REVED when President Bush the son was in the White House.i just felt it was going from a bible debate to crossing invisible lines.

[Justaned]

And I believe what Ed is saying is very false and almost demonic. Even using tempting tactics and saying things like "Did the Bible or those verses really say that". which is what satan said in the garden. Discernment cannot be taught or even studied because it is a gift.

Leave out the "almost" and we are in 100% agreement. Who else would want to cast any doubt about our authority over the devil except the devil. That is part of the point of Joe McIntyre's teaching in the video I linked earlier.

Well no one has really answered the question did the Bible or those verses really say that?

No instead to avoid the issue they charge me of being like Satan and demonic. Can Satan or a demon confess that Jesus Christ is their Lord and Savior? Can a demon says Jesus is the living Son of the Living God? Can a demon say because of my belief in Jesus Christ and because Jesus Christ is my Lord and Savior my name is written in the Book of Life.

What did Jesus say when the Pharisees accused Him of being of Satan. He asked a question can a house divided stand. If I am of Satan how can I confess Jesus as Lord?

However those that make the charge are very careful not to answer my question but instead make hateful claims showing no fear of God's admonishment not to do such things. You decide who is who here.

[Justaned]

Of course Kenyon when pressed is going to deny he is anything but a man of God. That is what he wants people to think.

Ed, no one ever made those accusations about Kenyon during his day. He was well received in both Pentecostal and Evangelical churches. The accusations about Kenyon were made about 20 or 30 years after he died. It was a man named D. R. McConnell who first propagated this lie about Kenyon in his book, "A Different Gospel" and Hanegraaff made the lie more popular in his book "Christianity in Crisis".

However, both defenders and critics of Kenyon have repudiated this lie. Among the critics is Robert Bowman who wrote the book "The Word-Faith Controversy". Bowman wrote very sharp critiques of the Faith Movement and I vehemently disagree with him but he at least disregards the idea that Kenyon was involved in cultic practices and believes that Kenyon was an Evangelical.

Another critic is professor Simmons who wrote the book, "EW Kenyon and the Postbellum Pursuit of Power". Simmons attended ORU with D. R. McConnell and they worked on the Kenyon project together. They were both pursuing the idea that Kenyon was involved in Metaphysical cults. However, Simmons began discovering that there was way too much evidence that Kenyon was primarily influenced by Evangelicals and tried to show this to McConnell who would not listen to him. So they split. Simmons is absolutely no fan of the Faith MOvement so his defense of Kenyon in this area is not bias.

One other critic of the Faith Movement who repudiates the idea that Kenyon was a metaphysician is Bruce Barron in his book, "The Health and Wealth Gospel". Barron critiques the faith movement but disagrees with McConnell's thesis about Kenyon. Barron simply believes that the WoF is a Pentecostal Movement that has gone overboard. While I disagree with Barron, at least he does not accept the lies about Kenyon.

There is one other critic's book that I have that disputes the Metaphysical claims but I don't feel like looking it up right now. Also Ed, just to let you know, I am not writing this post to convince you but to help any one who may be reading these posts and might have doubts after reading your post. If WoF critics dispute these false ideas about Kenyon then I would have to say that the source of this information about Kenyon is questionable, wouldn't you? Especially if the primary sources own former partner repudiates this false idea about Kenyon.

I don't need some author trying to sell a book to tell me Kenyon is good or bad.
I can read what Kenyon said and if I understand metaphysics I can easily decide for myself if what he is teaching is metaphysical or not. And it is!

I don't need you or any one else to tell me or anyone else it is not. Nor do I need McConnell or Hanegraaff to tell me it is.

I know what metaphysics is and I know what Kenyon taught. Kenyon taught the power of the spoken word with the idea things do not become reality until we speak them. That is the whole premise of Word of Faith. Faith is not a reality until we speak our faith then it become a reality. Wordsmith all you want that is what Kenyon taught and that is the idea behind the teaching of the WoF and it even explain how they came up with the name Word of Faith.

Now you can deny that all you want but it doesn't change one word of Kenyon's teaching and all one has to do is pick up one of his books and read it for themselves.

[victoryword]

I don't need some author trying to sell a book to tell me Kenyon is good or bad.
I can read what Kenyon said and if I understand metaphysics I can easily decide for myself if what he is teaching is metaphysical or not. And it is!

I don't need you or any one else to tell me or anyone else it is not. Nor do I need McConnell or Hanegraaff to tell me it is.

I know what metaphysics is and I know what Kenyon taught. Kenyon taught the power of the spoken word with the idea things do not become reality until we speak them. That is the whole premise of Word of Faith. Faith is not a reality until we speak our faith then it become a reality. Wordsmith all you want that is what Kenyon taught and that is the idea behind the teaching of the WoF and it even explain how they came up with the name Word of Faith.

Now you can deny that all you want but it doesn't change one word of Kenyon's teaching and all one has to do is pick up one of his books and read it for themselves.

I don't have to deny anything Ed. All that I need to do is let Kenyon speak for himself. You are making the accusation so you should provide the proof. Of course you don't have any so I will never see you prove your case. Kenyon has stated in his writings that, "God is. Satan is. Sin is. But God has dealt with the sin problem in His Son." (Kenyon, Two Kinds of Righteousness, p. 9).

The Metaphysicians deny what Kenyon affirms.