Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ 3 Days

[luchnia]

Many of your posts such as this one are proof positive evidence that the mind is not fully renewed.

As much as I wish you could understand what I write, I know it can't happen until you are baptized, killing the old man and its understandings.
Then you will be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.

That new life includes a new mind...the mind if Christ.
"...behold, all things are become new." (2 Cor 5:17)

How do you know I am not baptized? Is that because I disagree with your perception of the various baptisms that you think that?

[Hill Top]

How do you know I am not baptized? Is that because I disagree with your perception of the various baptisms that you think that?

No, just your lack of faith concerning water baptism...for the remission of sins...the death of the old man...the rebirth of a new man...the circumcision done without hands...and of the new mind being part of the new creature.

[Hill Top]

Yep, because he does not have faith in the baptism into Christ which is more important than the baptism into water.

They are the same thing.
Baptism of the Holy Spirit is given by God later.

His faith is in the act of using a physical element to remit his sins.

It is written..."And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (1 John 5:8)
Are you trying to separate water from blood in agreement?

If he did not have the physical element of water his belief would make him full of sin thus no need for the immersion into Christ and the putting away of sin.

They are done at the same time.
Perhaps you can tell us how you were "immersed" into Christ?

Since he believes water remits sin, hope he was washed thoroughly in water or he is in danger of hell fire because Christ if of no use to him.

I believe the waters of baptism are the blood of Christ. (1 John 5:8)
Without blood there is no remission.
How was the blood of Christ applied to sanctify you?

It is written..."In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;" (Col 2:11-13)

It is a shame you can't see that baptism...even when water isn't mentioned, is with water unless otherwise specified.
Just like the Ethiopian eunuch, the Samaritans, the twelve at Ephesus, and Cornelius.

[luchnia]

...even when water isn't mentioned, is with water unless otherwise specified.

So if something is not mentioned with a word all the time, then it can be applied with the same word unless otherwise specified? That is like saying because one falls into cow crap, would mean that every time one falls it is assumed it is into cow crap unless otherwise specified.

Do you apply that same standard to other words that you use, or just the word baptism? Of course you don't. If you say your car is blue, that won't convince me that all cars are blue.

BTW, you would have to use fire and Holy Spirit with baptism every time the word baptism is used, unless otherwise specified. Mt 3:11

[luchnia]

Let's look at the effects of a "real" baptism.

Don't you mean real "water" baptism since your belief dictates all the things you listed require water and it being Christ blood?

Some people were gathered at the shore of a lake and were being baptized in the water. One of them said the water was the blood of Christ, another said he thought the wine at communion was Christ' blood. On-lookers heard them and said, the wine at communion must be Christ blood because the water hasn't changed and looks like it always did.

[Hill Top]

Don't you mean real "water" baptism since your belief dictates all the things you listed require water and it being Christ blood?

Yes I do, as it is the only baptism we can initiate/accomplish.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is done by God, at His discretion..

Some people were gathered at the shore of a lake and were being baptized in the water. One of them said the water was the blood of Christ, another said he thought the wine at communion was Christ' blood. On-lookers heard them and said, the wine at communion must be Christ blood because the water hasn't changed and looks like it always did.

So?
What has the opinion of three people got to do with my post?
Isn't the communion wine the blood of Christ by faith?
Well so are the waters of baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins.
Why should faith only work in one situation?

[luchnia]

Don't you mean real "water" baptism since your belief dictates all the things you listed require water and it being Christ blood?

Yes I do, as it is the only baptism we can initiate/accomplish.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is done by God, at His discretion..

Some people were gathered at the shore of a lake and were being baptized in the water. One of them said the water was the blood of Christ, another said he thought the wine at communion was Christ' blood. On-lookers heard them and said, the wine at communion must be Christ blood because the water hasn't changed and looks like it always did.

So?
What has the opinion of three people got to do with my post?
Isn't the communion wine the blood of Christ by faith?
Well so are the waters of baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins.
Why should faith only work in one situation?

So, by faith, the baptism in water is a baptism in water. The baptism in Christ is a baptism in Christ. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is a baptism in the Holy Spirit. One is in water, one is in Christ, and one is in the Holy Spirit.

Water is specified in the first, but not specified in the later two. Certainly you will imply and maintain that water is meant in one of the later two. As long as you add water to verses where water is not specified there will be complications - e.g to the baptism in Christ (the only baptism that saves the soul performed by the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:13, Mt 3:11, Jn 1:31-33, etc.).

So, for you in your walk and by your understanding water for immersion will be required where it is not specified. For the rest, by fatih they will accept the work of the Holy Spirit through Christ.

[Hill Top]

So, by faith, the baptism in water is a baptism in water. The baptism in Christ is a baptism in Christ. The baptism in the Holy Spirit is a baptism in the Holy Spirit. One is in water, one is in Christ, and one is in the Holy Spirit.

The baptism WITH water is, by faith, baptism into Christ, into His death burial and resurrection, and the circumcision done without hands in casting off the flesh (with the affections and lusts).
Water baptism is our "immersion" into Christ.

Can you show me where you found a "baptism in Christ"?

Water is specified in the first, but not specified in the later two. Certainly you will imply and maintain that water is meant in one of the later two. As long as you add water to verses where water is not specified there will be complications - e.g to the baptism in Christ (the only baptism that saves the soul performed by the Holy Spirit 1 Cor 12:13, Mt 3:11, Jn 1:31-33, etc.).

In response to 1 Cor 12:13..."And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (1 John 5:8)
The water, Spirit, and blood are one.

In response to Matt 3:11...I see no indication that water baptism for repentance from sin is abolished, nor do I understand how Jesus' baptism with the Holy Ghost can be accomplished by us.
It is His doing; His gift to those whose turn from sin is real.
We play no part, but a true repentance from sin, in this baptism.

In response to John 1:31-33...Again you are supplanting water baptism with Holy Spirit baptism.
That is an error.
Men are to be water baptized first, then Jesus does the baptizing with the Holy Spirit/Holy Ghost.
It is written..."Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." (Acts 2:38)
"Get baptized for the remission of sins THEN God will baptize you with the Holy Spirit."
They are sequential events.

So, for you in your walk and by your understanding water for immersion will be required where it is not specified. For the rest, by fatih they will accept the work of the Holy Spirit through Christ.

It is written..."To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins," (Luke 1:77)
Was water mentioned there?
Was baptism mentioned there?
No they weren't, but it is understood that water baptism was the means of remission of sins then.
So it is now.

BTW, water was "specified" for the Ethiopian eunuch's baptism by Philip.
In fact, a man-performed baptism was also "specified" for the twelve at Ephesus, Paul, the Samaritans, and Cornelius too.
Didn't they "by faith accept the work of the Holy Spirit through Christ"?
I say YES, they did.

[TruthSeeker]

If you have a look at Dake's chart you will see that Dake has Jesus going into the paradise part of hell.
So it seems to me that Dake did not believe Jesus had to suffer torment in hell like some teach.

Thanks Ironman and macca. That was helpful. I have been taught that Jesus had to suffer torment in hell so that we do not have to.

Yes the idea that Jesus died and went to suffer torment in Hell for 3 days and nights, is widely taught in the Word of Faith Camp of which I am a part.

EW Kenyon, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin and a number of others teach it consistently in their tapes, cds and books. I love them all and have received so much from their teaching, but that is one teaching I just cannot find Scriptural support for.

Still pondering what happened those 3 days and 3 nights. Jesus was in such torment in the garden that he sweat drops of blood. I do not believe he feared physical death for he said in Luke 12:4 not to be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have nothing more they can do. And He certainly didn't fear going to paradise. He either was in such torment about taking the sin of the world upon Himself on the cross or going to the place of wicked spirits separated from his Father.

[bibleman]

If you have a look at Dake's chart you will see that Dake has Jesus going into the paradise part of hell.
So it seems to me that Dake did not believe Jesus had to suffer torment in hell like some teach.

Thanks Ironman and macca. That was helpful. I have been taught that Jesus had to suffer torment in hell so that we do not have to.

Yes the idea that Jesus died and went to suffer torment in Hell for 3 days and nights, is widely taught in the Word of Faith Camp of which I am a part.

EW Kenyon, Kenneth Copeland, Kenneth Hagin and a number of others teach it consistently in their tapes, cds and books. I love them all and have received so much from their teaching, but that is one teaching I just cannot find Scriptural support for.

Still pondering what happened those 3 days and 3 nights. Jesus was in such torment in the garden that he sweat drops of blood. I do not believe he feared physical death for he said in Luke 12:4 not to be afraid of those who kill the body and after that have nothing more they can do. And He certainly didn't fear going to paradise. He either was in such torment about taking the sin of the world upon Himself on the cross or going to the place of wicked spirits separated from his Father.

Dake believed the devil was trying to kill him to keep him from going to the cross.