Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ The DIETY of Jesus Christ

[branham1965]

this post comes from a book by Dr.Roy Hicks called Sacred Cows.

He was a leader in the Foursquare Church of Sister McPherson.He also helped on Dad Hagin's book Healing in the Atonement with T.J.Mcrosson.

it concerns John 14 and John 16.He thought he had found a contradiction.


"in that day you will ask Me nothing ." John 16:23
i remember jws using this.

then in 14 "anything you ask (greek alteo strongs #154) in My Name that will I do that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

now Dr.Hicks says Jesus was very God and very man.not a weakling.

he went to the Amplified Bible "in that day you will ask Me no more questions." this is correct.strongs # 2056.by the way Weust,Jerusalem Bible ,Matthew Henry Commentary,Goodspeed,Vincent Word Study,NASB,20th Century,
Expositors Bible not the new one,Robertson's Word studies,Eerdmann,Rotherham's see marginal note,

W.E.Vine is most definitive.on page 79 concerning the word ask he states when erateo and aiteo are used together as in John16:23 it is always defined as a question.Jesus used eroteo ask in praying to the Father rather than aiteo demand.
if one looks ups erateo in Strong's Concordance you will find it is used over 22 times as a question as in Luke 9:45.
we call on Jesus Name to be saved.Kittle says calling means praying.


i thought this was interesting.......

[victoryword]

this post comes from a book by Dr.Roy Hicks called Sacred Cows.

He was a leader in the Foursquare Church of Sister McPherson.He also helped on Dad Hagin's book Healing in the Atonement with T.J.Mcrosson.

it concerns John 14 and John 16.He thought he had found a contradiction.


"in that day you will ask Me nothing ." John 16:23
i remember jws using this.

then in 14 "anything you ask (greek alteo strongs #154) in My Name that will I do that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

now Dr.Hicks says Jesus was very God and very man.not a weakling.

he went to the Amplified Bible "in that day you will ask Me no more questions." this is correct.strongs # 2056.by the way Weust,Jerusalem Bible ,Matthew Henry Commentary,Goodspeed,Vincent Word Study,NASB,20th Century,
Expositors Bible not the new one,Robertson's Word studies,Eerdmann,Rotherham's see marginal note,

W.E.Vine is most definitive.on page 79 concerning the word ask he states when erateo and aiteo are used together as in John16:23 it is always defined as a question.Jesus used eroteo ask in praying to the Father rather than aiteo demand.
if one looks ups erateo in Strong's Concordance you will find it is used over 22 times as a question as in Luke 9:45.
we call on Jesus Name to be saved.Kittle says calling means praying.


i thought this was interesting.......

I have that book by Roy Hicks but are you asking about affirmation of Christ's deity or whether Christ told us that we can "ask" or "demand" as far as prayer is concerned?

[branham1965]

THE LATTER ONE.I KNOW CHRIST IS GOD ALMIGHTY.

IF JESUS IS GOD THE SON THEN AS SUCH HE CAN ANSWER PRAYER ACCORDING TO SAINT JOHN CHAPTER 14:14FF.

this post comes from a book by Dr.Roy Hicks called Sacred Cows.

He was a leader in the Foursquare Church of Sister McPherson.He also helped on Dad Hagin's book Healing in the Atonement with T.J.Mcrosson.

it concerns John 14 and John 16.He thought he had found a contradiction.


"in that day you will ask Me nothing ." John 16:23
i remember jws using this.

then in 14 "anything you ask (greek alteo strongs #154) in My Name that will I do that the Father may be glorified in the Son."

now Dr.Hicks says Jesus was very God and very man.not a weakling.

he went to the Amplified Bible "in that day you will ask Me no more questions." this is correct.strongs # 2056.by the way Weust,Jerusalem Bible ,Matthew Henry Commentary,Goodspeed,Vincent Word Study,NASB,20th Century,
Expositors Bible not the new one,Robertson's Word studies,Eerdmann,Rotherham's see marginal note,

W.E.Vine is most definitive.on page 79 concerning the word ask he states when erateo and aiteo are used together as in John16:23 it is always defined as a question.Jesus used eroteo ask in praying to the Father rather than aiteo demand.
if one looks ups erateo in Strong's Concordance you will find it is used over 22 times as a question as in Luke 9:45.
we call on Jesus Name to be saved.Kittle says calling means praying.


i thought this was interesting.......

I have that book by Roy Hicks but are you asking about affirmation of Christ's deity or whether Christ told us that we can "ask" or "demand" as far as prayer is concerned?

[Ironman]

Thanks billy! Good subject.

"Dr.Hicks says Jesus was very God and very man."

.

How I understand the Word becoming a man. I may be wrong, but here goes.

As the Word John 1:1, He was fully God, an eternal being As a MAN, John 1:14, He was fully MAN, a finite being. I don't think He could be both at the same time. I don't thing He was God in any way while He was fully MAN! While He was Man, He was still "ONE", in unity with the Father but He had no God powers at all and was purely a man capable of dying!

Here's why I think this way. Correct me if I am misunderstanding this please Bibleman.

The Word John 1:1, who became flesh and bone, John 1:14, as God could not possibly die. As a man, He could die! That's what He did for us.

The Word God, for us sinners, humbled Himself. He divests himself of His divine glory and power. He never even had the glory and powers of angels but took upon Himself the body and form of a lowly, sinful man.

But this was not all. He not only took the form of man, but the mortality of the flesh, so He could die for us sinners. He died the most shameful and painful of all deaths, even the death of the cross.

As a man He could do no miracles until He was baptised and was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Philippians 2:6, Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7, But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8, And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

The Father, after Jesus dead body lay three full days and three full nights in the grave, raised Him from the dead and restored Him to His former power and glory which He had as the Word in John 1:1.

Matthew 28:17, And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18, And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH.

Acts 10: 39, And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

40, Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

Philippians 2:9, Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10, That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11, And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

We believers are witnesses,. Not only of his life and power, but of his resurrection. And He has given us power and opportunity to do the works He did, and even greater works.

John 14:12, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Some saw and doubted, we have not seen but we believe.

John 20:29, Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

[branham1965]

this is a tough one.i am keeping my mind open mate.

John 8:58 "before Abraham was I AM."

"Take heed therefore unto yourselves,and to all the flock,over which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers,to feed the Church of God ,which HE HATH PURCHASED WITH HIS OWN BLOOD." Acts 20:28

"For in Him dwelleth all the fullness of the Godhead BODILY." COL.2:9

"And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness
GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH
justified in the Spirit
seen of angels
preached unto the Gentiles
believed on in the world
received up into glory." 1 Tim3:16

Thanks billy! Good subject.

"Dr.Hicks says Jesus was very God and very man."

.

How I understand the Word becoming a man. I may be wrong, but here goes.

As the Word John 1:1, He was fully God, an eternal being As a MAN, John 1:14, He was fully MAN, a finite being. I don't think He could be both at the same time. I don't thing He was God in any way while He was fully MAN! While He was Man, He was still "ONE", in unity with the Father but He had no God powers at all and was purely a man capable of dying!

Here's why I think this way. Correct me if I am misunderstanding this please Bibleman.

The Word John 1:1, who became flesh and bone, John 1:14, as God could not possibly die. As a man, He could die! That's what He did for us.

The Word God, for us sinners, humbled Himself. He divests himself of His divine glory and power. He never even had the glory and powers of angels but took upon Himself the body and form of a lowly, sinful man.

But this was not all. He not only took the form of man, but the mortality of the flesh, so He could die for us sinners. He died the most shameful and painful of all deaths, even the death of the cross.

As a man He could do no miracles until He was baptised and was filled with the Holy Spirit.

Philippians 2:6, Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

7, But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8, And being found in fashion as a man, He humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

The Father, after Jesus dead body lay three full days and three full nights in the grave, raised Him from the dead and restored Him to His former power and glory which He had as the Word in John 1:1.

Matthew 28:17, And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.

18, And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, ALL POWER IS GIVEN UNTO ME IN HEAVEN AND IN EARTH.

Acts 10: 39, And we are witnesses of all things which he did both in the land of the Jews, and in Jerusalem; whom they slew and hanged on a tree:

40, Him God raised up the third day, and shewed him openly;

Philippians 2:9, Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

10, That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;

11, And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

We believers are witnesses,. Not only of his life and power, but of his resurrection. And He has given us power and opportunity to do the works He did, and even greater works.

John 14:12, Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Some saw and doubted, we have not seen but we believe.

John 20:29, Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

[bibleman]

Ironman and Billy,

Take a read on this by Dake.

IV. The Union of the Two Natures of Jesus Christ

The above-indicated studies on the divinity and humanity of Jesus Christ prove that He was a divine human being. The orthodox theory holds that the two natures of Christ were both complete in themselves, yet so organically and indissolubly united that no third nature is formed thereby. It forbids us to divide the person and confound the two natures of Jesus Christ. Being truly divine He is a true representative of God, and being truly human He is a true representative of man.

Christ constantly spoke of Himself as a single person and not as two persons in one. There is no interchange of speech between the two natures as between two persons. The attributes and powers of both natures are ascribed to the one person so that they are operated as part of a single individual. There is no double personality, but one single unit of characteristics of both the human and the divine. Just as any father and mother impart certain traits to the offspring, making a single person with characteristics of both parents, so the human and the divine were united in the one person of Jesus Christ—with one body, soul, and spirit and with one consciousness and one will.

The Fatherhood of God and the motherhood of Mary produced a single personality. After all, it must be remembered that God made man with the same bodily parts as He has in His Spirit-body, only our bodies are earthly and human and His is spiritual and divine. He made man with the same kind of soul with feelings, emotions, passions, desires, and appetites, capable of the same soul-acts as He Himself was; only our soul is finite and His is infinite. He made man with a spirit with all the attributes and powers that He has, capable of the same acts; only our spirits are finite and His is infinite. In other words, man is endowed with exactly the same traits, characteristics, attributes, powers, feelings, and passions as God, only on a finite scale.
With this in mind one can see that the soul and spirit faculties that were born in Jesus Christ by a divine Father and a human mother were exactly the same as in any other being like God; so when Christ acted and used any one attribute or power as a man it was like the exercise of God in the same aspects, only His faculties were perfectly untainted with the Fall and its effects. When Christ acted He was like man before the Fall and not like sinful man since the Fall. Every fallen man when he is recreated in Christ and made a new creature is capable of proper exercise of his faculties in holy and lawful uses. (See Lesson Four, Point II, 8 and 9.)

We may express it this way: man in his unfallen state acted exactly like God in the exercise of his faculties, only his attributes and powers were limited. He was capable of the same powers and acts only on a finite scale. What is finite in man is infinite in God. Holy man when he is energized and acted upon and endued with supernatural powers can exercise his natural attributes and faculties in a supernatural degree or measure, depending upon what extent he is yielded to and energized by the Spirit of God. For example, Christ and the disciples when endued with power from on High were capable of God-action to destroy sin and sickness as much as if God Himself were doing the work without using them as instruments.

It must also be remembered that men when born again become partakers of the divine nature and to the extent to which that nature controls and works in and through their created faculties they live divine lives and do divine works. In such men the created faculties are liberated from evil acts and evil powers and become acts of divine energy through the Holy Spirit. Just as Christ was perfectly helpless in Himself and acted, spoke, worked, lived, and did all things through the anointing of the Holy Spirit, the believer to the extent that he becomes like Christ becomes God-inspired and God-energized and God-operated. (See Point V, 31, for Scriptures of a perfectly divine life in human form.) Thus, the Christian fully living in the fullness of God lives a divine-human life in the Holy Spirit by the very presence and power of God in the human soul and spirit.

If we can understand these things, we certainly can understand how God could become so perfectly human and yet remain so perfectly divine as to be a perfect union—God and man in one personality. Whether the divine attributes and powers of God in Christ were limited and to what extent is a great question in Christian circles. Whether He laid them aside entirely for a time, or whether they were possessed by Him and voluntarily limited will always be a point of controversy. However, this much is settled that He was limited in the days of His flesh, as we shall see in Point VIII, below; whether He was limited constitutionally or voluntarily is not the point. It is a fact that if it were done constitutionally it was nevertheless voluntary as stilted in Jn. 10:18; Heb. 10:5-9. He was not forced to do one thing. Everything was a voluntary action on His part. It matters not whether it was constitutional, or whether He still retained all the divine powers and attributes in His person and chose to limit their use for His time of life on Earth. The fact remains that He was limited as a man, and if His choice was so powerful as to do away with all use of them, what is the difference between laying them aside and still retaining them without power to use them?

It was important that He limit Himself as a man to set the right example for man so that he can be inspired to live like God on Earth by the same means Christ used. For all the arguments about His having two personalities, two natures in one personality, human nature without personality, or divine nature without human traits—the fact will always remain that He was both human and divine, and if some cannot understand the how of it, the fact of it can be believed and must be if we want harmony of all Scriptures. One certainty is that His human nature had no separate existence before its union with the divine and is not in itself a separate personality from the divine person who became incarnated in human flesh.

It was not only important that He have two natures, human and divine for the sake of man, but also for the sake of God, to be a true mediator between God and man. His twofold nature gives Him fellowship with both parties and capability of representing both to reconcile both. As God He can uphold the dignity of deity and as man He can be truly sympathetic and meet the needs of man. Because He is God His atonement has infinite value and effect. A further discussion of the dual natures will be given under Point VIII, below.

Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 372-373.

[Ironman]

"GOD WAS MANIFEST IN THE FLESH"

. Col. 2:9.

Not disagreeing with you mate, just adding my opinion and as I said, I may be wrong in my understanding.

Its in Christ alone, not in the vain philosophies, vain deceit human traditions of the Jews and gentiles, or the world principles will be found in the fullness of the Godhead in reality or bodily. Jewish institutions were mere shadows of the realities and of the redemption made through the offering of the body of Christ in sacrifice (v 14-17; Matt. 26:26-28; Rom. 7:6; Eph. 2:16; Heb. 10:1-18; 1 Pet. 2"24).

The Greek word somatikos, bodily, refers to that which is real in contrast to that which is typical or shadowy as in verse 17; Heb. 10:1.

The fullness of the Holy Spirit rested upon Him and worked through His body Isa. 11:2; 42:1-7; 61:1-2; John 3:34; Acts 10:38. The fullness of redemption from the Diety came through His body 1 Peter 2:24. This is why we become complete in Him and why He is head of all principalities and power v 10:1:16-18; Eph. 1:20-23; Phil. 2:9-11; 1 Peter 3:22.

I cannot get my mind to believe God dying for men, I can understand God becoming a man and being able to die, because the FATHER was still there in Heaven, alive and well, running the universe and all things as the Word did under the Father, and it was the Father who raised Him from the dead. IMHO.

[branham1965]

What Reverend Bible posted i think is excellent.though i must admit is a bit over my hard head.

i like your posts mate you dig. like the old days.

[Ironman]

Ironman and Billy,

Take a read on this by Dake.

IV. The Union of the Two Natures of Jesus Christ

Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 372-373.

Thanks Bibleman. Got that. Read it!

Am I wrong in my understanding put simply, as the Word John 1:1, He had no beginning, He was God and was with God, He then freely divested Himself of His divinity and became flesh and bone, John 1:14, and as a flesh and bone man He had a beginning and He Himself publicly declared that He was not God, or the Word, but the "SON OF GOD!"

Luke 22:70, Then said they all, Art thou then the Son of God? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.

John 3:18, He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:25, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

And other places in Scripture. He also did no miracle until He was baptized and was filled with the Holy Spirit. I also believe as a man, not God or the Word God who was with the Father, He was able to die, which I believe He could not have done as the Word!

Jesus, the man died, His spirit left His earthly body, and after three full days and nights as prophesied the Father, in Heaven, who was alive, running the universe raised Him and restored Him to His Former Power and Glory which He had with the Father before He became a man! That being said, I believe He was a Man, nothing more, while He was on the Earth who died, His Spirit leaving His body and He remained dead until the Father raised Him.

Are we not sons of God as Jesus said?

1 John 3:1, Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not. 1 John 3:2, 1

1 John 3:2, Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

He was a man as we are men, He was the Word who became the Son of God. He did miracles after He was baptised and He also said we could do all He did and even more than He did depending on our faith!

He was God who became man so He could die. I believe He was fully God and fully Man while He was on Earth He would not have been able to die. If He was full God as well as Man, Satan could boast, "Well, its no wonder I could not tempt Him in the desert after He fasted, He retained His Divinity, or part thereof, who can tempt God? The devil tempted Jesus the man, not the Word. The Word could never be tempted or sin, but Jesus could have sinned had He been weak.

Even though Jesus said thou shalt not tempt the Lord they God, he did three times before he left. I believe Jesus was letting Him know who he was dealing with. The Fathers and the Words will, as prophesied would be carried out.

If I am wrong, I stand corrected. Thank you! H.