Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ The passage all liberals hate!

[victoryword]

I fully agree with you Rocky. It is not an "orthodox" position to take but I believe that the Biblical evidence coupled with our knowledge of God's character of love proves that the fall of the first couple was neither predestined nor foreknown by God. Of course God knew of the possibility of the fal and was immediately ready with a plan in case it happened, but I do not believe based on the Bible evidence that He wanted it or knew for sure that it would occur.

There was no reason for Adam to fall. He had everything he could ever want or need. There was plenty for him to do so he was not bored. There were no obstacles blocking his potential. He was warned about the enemy and Paul states that he was not deceived. There is just no reason to have fallen. NOne. If God spent all of this time preparing the earth for man and then creating man with full knowledge that he would fall in a very short period of time and ruin the whole creation and send the majority of his progeny to en eternal hell where they will be tormented forever, it would be the most criminally negligent thing for Him to go ahead and create anyway. I have never found any arguments in the Calvinist or Arminian camps that convinced me otherwise.

Therefore, the fall of man is not God's fault, not in one iota. Despite man being fully responsible for his own fall, God still became a man and rescued us. How cool is THAT?

[Justaned]

Ed to me and I may be wrong brother, but the way you explain it makes God playing some sort of sick game with mankind if he knows every thing we are going to do before we do it. like when he tests man's faithfulness, if he already knows and still allows and lets us be tested and to face calamity for no reason then wouldn't that be being a sadist? Now I know you will probably say it is to make us stronger or its for us, well all I have to say about that is, I love my sons but I am not going to bring calamity on them just to make them strong unless I am some sick puppy and into sadomasochism.

It would be a sick game if no one benefited. However in every example of the God testing people two things happened. The faith of the people tested grew by leaps and bounds and it was recorded as a testimony of God's faithfulness to strengthen our faith.

Does anyone know really know how strong their faith is until that faith is tested?

Peter told the Lord he would never deny the Lord but when tested Peter denied Jesus thrice.

The testing of our faith is what our faith is built on. If we never had adversity never had our faith tested how would our faith grow?

When David met Goliath what did he do first? He rehearsed all the previous tests of this faith of which God delivered him. Thus he knew how strong his faith was before he was ever required to stand on it.

Just testing people without anything accomplished is as you said a sick game but I submit to you that untold numbers of people have been strengthened by seeing Abraham's faith being tested.

[Justaned]

I fully agree with you Rocky. It is not an "orthodox" position to take but I believe that the Biblical evidence coupled with our knowledge of God's character of love proves that the fall of the first couple was neither predestined nor foreknown by God. Of course God knew of the possibility of the fal and was immediately ready with a plan in case it happened, but I do not believe based on the Bible evidence that He wanted it or knew for sure that it would occur.

There was no reason for Adam to fall. He had everything he could ever want or need. There was plenty for him to do so he was not bored. There were no obstacles blocking his potential. He was warned about the enemy and Paul states that he was not deceived. There is just no reason to have fallen. NOne. If God spent all of this time preparing the earth for man and then creating man with full knowledge that he would fall in a very short period of time and ruin the whole creation and send the majority of his progeny to en eternal hell where they will be tormented forever, it would be the most criminally negligent thing for Him to go ahead and create anyway. I have never found any arguments in the Calvinist or Arminian camps that convinced me otherwise.

Therefore, the fall of man is not God's fault, not in one iota. Despite man being fully responsible for his own fall, God still became a man and rescued us. How cool is THAT?

Man had to be tested, it was the only way man would ever have to make the decision to love God or to love his flesh.
Of course God knew that once man was tested man would give into his flesh.

As children we love our parents but it isn't until we are tested in our obedience to our parents that we fully grasp the concept of love. In fact many kids never do and end up hating their parents because they didn't do what they thought they should have. It is that way with man. We question God instead of looking to see how the testing has actually benefited us.

[Michael Evans]

My two bob:
God is omniscient and omnipresent.
At times, he says things in His Word which accommodates the limited knowledge of man eg. Gen 3. "What is this that thou hast done?"
The Fall did not take God by surprise as Jesus is the Lamb slain before the 'foundation of the world" (which could also be translated more correctly as "before the disintegration/casting down of the inhabitants" referring to the pre-Adamites).God also knew the names Adam was going to give the animals although it reads that he "saw what he would name them" in Genesis 2. He just found out what Adam was going to name them before the day he named them. God knows every day of our lives. WE determine what God always knew we would choose to do each day.We choose each day what God knew we would choose to do, thus He can plan things concerning each one of us.
Because the scriptures do not state that the Lord visited Sodom and Gomorrah personally BEFORE he conversed with Abraham does not indicate that he did NOT go there personally.Also, the law of delegation intimates that the delegate is seen to do what the delegator would do if He went Himself. (eg. the two accounts of the centurion seeking Christ's help re his servant: In one account,the Jews go interceding for him, in the other, it looks as though he went himself).
God knows the future. It is one major attribute which sets Him apart from false gods. I believe God knew Lucifer would fall when he created him.He allowed Lucifer to remain un-incarcerated to tempt Adam because if Adam had sinned without a tempter+ with as much knowledge as Lucifer He could not have justly shown mercy to him and not to Lucifer. Oral Roberts used to teach this.
God showed mercy to Sodom+ Gomorrah when he delivered them from the four kings through Abraham. They had the testimony of Abraham and Melchizidek but like modern pleasure-worshipers, they chose to continue in sin. I have heard it said that if God had not judged S+G, there would not have been a virgin in that part of the world to bear the Christ at the time appointed.Thus, like the flood, this judgement was an act of mercy towards future generations.Pro-gay folk like to say Jesus never dealt explicitly with homosexuality. He didn't need to. The law clearly forbade it. He cast out many unclean spirits ("Uncleanness" at times is used to refer to this sin in the NT). He cited Sodom on more than one occasion. Paul by the Spirit spoke of homosexuals in Corinth who were no longer in bondage to that lifestyle. No matter what sinners may say, it is classed with fornication and those who persist in defying God and living this way will meet judgment. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and the other cities near them is a clear example of the fate which awaits all who will not repent.The world may not like it and learn from the example, but they all know about it. It is perhaps the second most known judgement of God after Noah's flood.

[Rocky]

My two bob:
God is omniscient and omnipresent.
At times, he says things in His Word which accommodates the limited knowledge of man eg. Gen 3. "What is this that thou hast done?"
The Fall did not take God by surprise as Jesus is the Lamb slain before the 'foundation of the world" (which could also be translated more correctly as "before the disintegration/casting down of the inhabitants" referring to the pre-Adamites).God also knew the names Adam was going to give the animals although it reads that he "saw what he would name them" in Genesis 2. He just found out what Adam was going to name them before the day he named them. God knows every day of our lives. WE determine what God always knew we would choose to do each day.We choose each day what God knew we would choose to do, thus He can plan things concerning each one of us.
Because the scriptures do not state that the Lord visited Sodom and Gomorrah personally BEFORE he conversed with Abraham does not indicate that he did NOT go there personally.Also, the law of delegation intimates that the delegate is seen to do what the delegator would do if He went Himself. (eg. the two accounts of the centurion seeking Christ's help re his servant: In one account,the Jews go interceding for him, in the other, it looks as though he went himself).
God knows the future. It is one major attribute which sets Him apart from false gods. I believe God knew Lucifer would fall when he created him.He allowed Lucifer to remain un-incarcerated to tempt Adam because if Adam had sinned without a tempter+ with as much knowledge as Lucifer He could not have justly shown mercy to him and not to Lucifer. Oral Roberts used to teach this.
God showed mercy to Sodom+ Gomorrah when he delivered them from the four kings through Abraham. They had the testimony of Abraham and Melchizidek but like modern pleasure-worshipers, they chose to continue in sin. I have heard it said that if God had not judged S+G, there would not have been a virgin in that part of the world to bear the Christ at the time appointed.Thus, like the flood, this judgement was an act of mercy towards future generations.Pro-gay folk like to say Jesus never dealt explicitly with homosexuality. He didn't need to. The law clearly forbade it. He cast out many unclean spirits ("Uncleanness" at times is used to refer to this sin in the NT). He cited Sodom on more than one occasion. Paul by the Spirit spoke of homosexuals in Corinth who were no longer in bondage to that lifestyle. No matter what sinners may say, it is classed with fornication and those who persist in defying God and living this way will meet judgment. The destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah and the other cities near them is a clear example of the fate which awaits all who will not repent.The world may not like it and learn from the example, but they all know about it. It is perhaps the second most known judgement of God after Noah's flood.

Great post. I think the only thing I differ with you on is God's foreknowledge of Lucifer's fall. I believe Like Adam, Angels had a dispensation. Angels have free will as we do and I believe they went through a probationary period meaning, their free will had to be tested just like Adams free will hade to be tested . But that is only speculation for the most part and coming from the understanding of how God deals with man concerning this. However I am open the fact you could very well be right in your understanding of this as well.

[Justaned]

Matthew 10:29-31 (NKJV)
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

Luke 12:6-7 (NKJV)
6 Are not five sparrows sold for two copper coins? And not one of them is forgotten before God.
7 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.


In light of these two verses I find it very hard to believe anyone really believes God didn't know what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah and need to go look.

Or that anything that happens on earth is a surprise to God.

[bibleman]

Matthew 10:29-31 (NKJV)
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

Luke 12:6-7 (NKJV)
6 Are not five sparrows sold for two copper coins? And not one of them is forgotten before God.
7 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.


In light of these two verses I find it very hard to believe anyone really believes God didn't know what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah and need to go look.

Or that anything that happens on earth is a surprise to God.

You should talk to Moses - he is the one who wrote the book of Genesis.

Genesis 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

[Justaned]

Matthew 10:29-31 (NKJV)
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

Luke 12:6-7 (NKJV)
6 Are not five sparrows sold for two copper coins? And not one of them is forgotten before God.
7 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.


In light of these two verses I find it very hard to believe anyone really believes God didn't know what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah and need to go look.

Or that anything that happens on earth is a surprise to God.

You should talk to Moses - he is the one who wrote the book of Genesis.

Genesis 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

The problem isn't in what is written or even how it was written. The problem lies with the people that try to use this passage to define an attribute of God, something for which this passage was never intended, that is the problem. God through scripture clearly tells us God knows how many hairs on your head but due to incorrect application of this passage people are saying God didn't know about the sin of two cities worth of people. In other words God instantly knew how many hairs were on the head of every person in these two towns, He just didn't know they are were sinning and had to come down in person to see it.

[Justaned]

This thread should be retitled from "The passage all liberals hate!" To "The passage that some use to try to limit a limitless God."

[bibleman]

Matthew 10:29-31 (NKJV)
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

Luke 12:6-7 (NKJV)
6 Are not five sparrows sold for two copper coins? And not one of them is forgotten before God.
7 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.


In light of these two verses I find it very hard to believe anyone really believes God didn't know what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah and need to go look.

Or that anything that happens on earth is a surprise to God.

You should talk to Moses - he is the one who wrote the book of Genesis.

Genesis 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

The problem isn't in what is written or even how it was written. The problem lies with the people that try to use this passage to define an attribute of God, something for which this passage was never intended, that is the problem. God through scripture clearly tells us God knows how many hairs on your head but due to incorrect application of this passage people are saying God didn't know about the sin of two cities worth of people. In other words God instantly knew how many hairs were on the head of every person in these two towns, He just didn't know they are were sinning and had to come down in person to see it.

OK then...

Let's ask this question.

What part of this passage do you think is WRONG?

Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

1) God can talk.
2) God has those who report to HIM what is going on on earth. (Angels)
3) God goes from place to place. (from heaven to earth and form place to place on earth)
4) The purpose in God going to Sodom and Gomorrah is to see what is going on.
5) God is checking for HIMSELF against the report that has been given to HIM. (before God destroys the cities HE must see for HIMSELF)
6) God is open to accepting the report or rejecting the report based on what HE HIMSELF sees. (Remember Angels have been known to lie)
7) God will ONLY know when he sees for HIMSELF. (THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT GOD HIMSELF SAID)

Do you believe 1 - 7 above?

I do!