Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Romans 7:14-25

[branham1965]

i do believe Reverend Dake is right on this.

its exactly as he wrote it.no matter who doesnt like it.present tense.
he is talking about his sin nature that all possess.the ones who say they dont are the biggest offenders.

Been studying these verses about Paul's struggle with sin, actually been studying this subject for a few years, multiple commentaries and bible translations. They are two main interpretations of these verses. The one that Dake holds, that this is about Pauls condition as a Pharisee before salvation, the other is the Christian struggle in the present tense. I am on the fence with this for a few reason. If you read these verses notice the present tense of the wording. And I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I am not perfect even as Christian I despise my own behavior sometimes. At times I agree with Dake and at times maybe Paul is talking about the Christian struggle and showing us the we are not perfect and we still need to rely on Jesus's righteousness on a daily basis. Other peoples insight would be much appreciated. Here are the verses:

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I do want to add again notice the present tense wording, and I know before salvation I did not care what I did, I did not hate what I did, if I wanted to do evil I did not care, I did it anyway.

[Justaned]

For perhaps as long as the church has known this text, interpreters have disagreed as to whether the person described is a Christian or a non-Christian. Whole movements have arisen to promote one of those views or the other. One side maintains that the person is too much in bondage to sin to be a believer, whereas the other side maintains that the person has too much love for the things of God and too much hatred of sin to be an unbeliever.

[Rocky]

i do believe Reverend Dake is right on this.

its exactly as he wrote it.no matter who doesnt like it.present tense.
he is talking about his sin nature that all possess.the ones who say they dont are the biggest offenders.

Been studying these verses about Paul's struggle with sin, actually been studying this subject for a few years, multiple commentaries and bible translations. They are two main interpretations of these verses. The one that Dake holds, that this is about Pauls condition as a Pharisee before salvation, the other is the Christian struggle in the present tense. I am on the fence with this for a few reason. If you read these verses notice the present tense of the wording. And I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I am not perfect even as Christian I despise my own behavior sometimes. At times I agree with Dake and at times maybe Paul is talking about the Christian struggle and showing us the we are not perfect and we still need to rely on Jesus's righteousness on a daily basis. Other peoples insight would be much appreciated. Here are the verses:

14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.
15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.
16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

I do want to add again notice the present tense wording, and I know before salvation I did not care what I did, I did not hate what I did, if I wanted to do evil I did not care, I did it anyway.

Maybe but I am not so sure, I will post why a little later..

[Grandfather]

Mr Bibleman,

I respect your opinion on this matter, but I simply disagree with it, for the reasons I have previously stated. As I mentioned in my first posting on this subject I believe this to be one of the great dilemmas of the scripture. We have here the intersection of two apparently contradictory themes, but yet they must remain harmonious with each other, while being true to themselves.

I see BOTH sides in scripture, I don't deny either side and at the same time I cannot embrace one and forsake the other. Both must be true or neither is true in my opinion. You have made a good case for (part) of your opinion being valid and as I said, I agree with the scriptures you've stated. However, stating them does not negate the other.

HI Grandpa,

Read the Dake quote above with the Scripture references and you will get it.

Don't give in to the old idea that a person can be born again and still live like the devil.

There is power in salvation and you can have power over a sinful life by the power of the blood of Christ!

First, I have never stated that the body is ALWAYS sinful and the flesh sins EVERY DAY. So that presupposing that is my position is incorrect and thus the reply is also incorrect because it is addresses a position not in question.

Paul writes the the church in Corinth - I wish to speak to you as spiritual but you are babes in Christ. He compares “babes in Christ” as being the same as carnal. Now, he does not say they need to get “saved” or “saved again”. In his notes Dake comments that: “This term is used to describe the beginning stage of Christian living and that of living more in the natural than in the spiritual life.” Dake's Annotated Reference Bible.

Therefore Dake acknowledges that believers sin. Dake does not say they become “unbelievers” or “unsaved” because of this action. So is there “no hope” for these believers? Or are they simply struggling as Paul described in Romans 7?

Paul is teaching these believers, that while they may struggle with sin, living as Dake says “more in the natural than spiritual”, that there is NO CONDEMNATION because they fell, for as Proverbs say “a righteous man falls seven time, but gets up again.”

I believe the key is to “get back up again” and not to stay “fallen”, to “grow up” in Christ as Peter instructs. We are not born “grown up” but it is a process that we go through.

[Ironman]

Pro 24:16, For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

[bibleman]

Mr Bibleman,

I respect your opinion on this matter, but I simply disagree with it, for the reasons I have previously stated. As I mentioned in my first posting on this subject I believe this to be one of the great dilemmas of the scripture. We have here the intersection of two apparently contradictory themes, but yet they must remain harmonious with each other, while being true to themselves.

I see BOTH sides in scripture, I don't deny either side and at the same time I cannot embrace one and forsake the other. Both must be true or neither is true in my opinion. You have made a good case for (part) of your opinion being valid and as I said, I agree with the scriptures you've stated. However, stating them does not negate the other.

HI Grandpa,

Read the Dake quote above with the Scripture references and you will get it.

Don't give in to the old idea that a person can be born again and still live like the devil.

There is power in salvation and you can have power over a sinful life by the power of the blood of Christ!

First, I have never stated that the body is ALWAYS sinful and the flesh sins EVERY DAY. So that presupposing that is my position is incorrect and thus the reply is also incorrect because it is addresses a position not in question.

Paul writes the the church in Corinth - I wish to speak to you as spiritual but you are babes in Christ. He compares “babes in Christ” as being the same as carnal. Now, he does not say they need to get “saved” or “saved again”. In his notes Dake comments that: “This term is used to describe the beginning stage of Christian living and that of living more in the natural than in the spiritual life.” Dake's Annotated Reference Bible.

Therefore Dake acknowledges that believers sin. Dake does not say they become “unbelievers” or “unsaved” because of this action. So is there “no hope” for these believers? Or are they simply struggling as Paul described in Romans 7?

Paul is teaching these believers, that while they may struggle with sin, living as Dake says “more in the natural than spiritual”, that there is NO CONDEMNATION because they fell, for as Proverbs say “a righteous man falls seven time, but gets up again.”

I believe the key is to “get back up again” and not to stay “fallen”, to “grow up” in Christ as Peter instructs. We are not born “grown up” but it is a process that we go through.

Hi Grandfather,

Above you said: "I believe the key is to “get back up again” and not to stay “fallen”, to “grow up” in Christ as Peter instructs."

Do you think Paul ever got back up and stopped his sinful lifestyle that he lived? (according to you)

[Grandfather]

Mr Bibleman,

I respect your opinion on this matter, but I simply disagree with it, for the reasons I have previously stated. As I mentioned in my first posting on this subject I believe this to be one of the great dilemmas of the scripture. We have here the intersection of two apparently contradictory themes, but yet they must remain harmonious with each other, while being true to themselves.

I see BOTH sides in scripture, I don't deny either side and at the same time I cannot embrace one and forsake the other. Both must be true or neither is true in my opinion. You have made a good case for (part) of your opinion being valid and as I said, I agree with the scriptures you've stated. However, stating them does not negate the other.

HI Grandpa,

Read the Dake quote above with the Scripture references and you will get it.

Don't give in to the old idea that a person can be born again and still live like the devil.

There is power in salvation and you can have power over a sinful life by the power of the blood of Christ!

First, I have never stated that the body is ALWAYS sinful and the flesh sins EVERY DAY. So that presupposing that is my position is incorrect and thus the reply is also incorrect because it is addresses a position not in question.

Paul writes the the church in Corinth - I wish to speak to you as spiritual but you are babes in Christ. He compares “babes in Christ” as being the same as carnal. Now, he does not say they need to get “saved” or “saved again”. In his notes Dake comments that: “This term is used to describe the beginning stage of Christian living and that of living more in the natural than in the spiritual life.” Dake's Annotated Reference Bible.

Therefore Dake acknowledges that believers sin. Dake does not say they become “unbelievers” or “unsaved” because of this action. So is there “no hope” for these believers? Or are they simply struggling as Paul described in Romans 7?

Paul is teaching these believers, that while they may struggle with sin, living as Dake says “more in the natural than spiritual”, that there is NO CONDEMNATION because they fell, for as Proverbs say “a righteous man falls seven time, but gets up again.”

I believe the key is to “get back up again” and not to stay “fallen”, to “grow up” in Christ as Peter instructs. We are not born “grown up” but it is a process that we go through.

Hi Grandfather,

Above you said: "I believe the key is to “get back up again” and not to stay “fallen”, to “grow up” in Christ as Peter instructs."

Do you think Paul ever got back up and stopped his sinful lifestyle that he lived? (according to you)

I don't know... he did write that Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Which. is compatible to what he wrote in Romans 7.

However, you are now slowly moving the conversation away from Romans 7.

You posed a question "Does this sound like a born again child of God? And clearly it is a struggle that a born again child of God faces as shown in 1 Cor and Dake's own notes confirm, born again children of God can and do sin. So yes, Romans 7 describes the condition of a born again child of God.

You made the statement that Satan was and is defeated. While that is conceptually true, it is also to be balanced with the truth mentioned about that we wrestle with evil. If Satan is fully defeated in every sense of the word "defeated" then why do we wrestle with principalities? What to wrestle at all? Are we to assume Paul was wrong and that he should have written: There is no need to wrestle because Satan has already been defeated. If "my team" has already defeat "that team" there is no need to play the game (of life)

Alas, we are still venturing further and further from the discussion and you are still asking questions but not answering anything. Therefore since you only want to ask questions while I am seeking for you to answer them I see no benefit to continuing a discussion that you are leading away from the point at hand. Should you decide to answer the questions posed by me in a previous post on this thread, then maybe we can continue this discussion.

[bibleman]

Mr Bibleman,

I respect your opinion on this matter, but I simply disagree with it, for the reasons I have previously stated. As I mentioned in my first posting on this subject I believe this to be one of the great dilemmas of the scripture. We have here the intersection of two apparently contradictory themes, but yet they must remain harmonious with each other, while being true to themselves.

I see BOTH sides in scripture, I don't deny either side and at the same time I cannot embrace one and forsake the other. Both must be true or neither is true in my opinion. You have made a good case for (part) of your opinion being valid and as I said, I agree with the scriptures you've stated. However, stating them does not negate the other.

HI Grandpa,

Read the Dake quote above with the Scripture references and you will get it.

Don't give in to the old idea that a person can be born again and still live like the devil.

There is power in salvation and you can have power over a sinful life by the power of the blood of Christ!

First, I have never stated that the body is ALWAYS sinful and the flesh sins EVERY DAY. So that presupposing that is my position is incorrect and thus the reply is also incorrect because it is addresses a position not in question.

Paul writes the the church in Corinth - I wish to speak to you as spiritual but you are babes in Christ. He compares “babes in Christ” as being the same as carnal. Now, he does not say they need to get “saved” or “saved again”. In his notes Dake comments that: “This term is used to describe the beginning stage of Christian living and that of living more in the natural than in the spiritual life.” Dake's Annotated Reference Bible.

Therefore Dake acknowledges that believers sin. Dake does not say they become “unbelievers” or “unsaved” because of this action. So is there “no hope” for these believers? Or are they simply struggling as Paul described in Romans 7?

Paul is teaching these believers, that while they may struggle with sin, living as Dake says “more in the natural than spiritual”, that there is NO CONDEMNATION because they fell, for as Proverbs say “a righteous man falls seven time, but gets up again.”

I believe the key is to “get back up again” and not to stay “fallen”, to “grow up” in Christ as Peter instructs. We are not born “grown up” but it is a process that we go through.

Hi Grandfather,

Above you said: "I believe the key is to “get back up again” and not to stay “fallen”, to “grow up” in Christ as Peter instructs."

Do you think Paul ever got back up and stopped his sinful lifestyle that he lived? (according to you)

I don't know... he did write that Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Which. is compatible to what he wrote in Romans 7.

However, you are now slowly moving the conversation away from Romans 7.

You posed a question "Does this sound like a born again child of God? And clearly it is a struggle that a born again child of God faces as shown in 1 Cor and Dake's own notes confirm, born again children of God can and do sin. So yes, Romans 7 describes the condition of a born again child of God.

You made the statement that Satan was and is defeated. While that is conceptually true, it is also to be balanced with the truth mentioned about that we wrestle with evil. If Satan is fully defeated in every sense of the word "defeated" then why do we wrestle with principalities? What to wrestle at all? Are we to assume Paul was wrong and that he should have written: There is no need to wrestle because Satan has already been defeated. If "my team" has already defeat "that team" there is no need to play the game (of life)

Alas, we are still venturing further and further from the discussion and you are still asking questions but not answering anything. Therefore since you only want to ask questions while I am seeking for you to answer them I see no benefit to continuing a discussion that you are leading away from the point at hand. Should you decide to answer the questions posed by me in a previous post on this thread, then maybe we can continue this discussion.

Hi Grandfather,

Above I asked: "Do you think Paul ever got back up and stopped his sinful lifestyle that he lived? (according to you)"

And you replied: "I don't know... "

WOW - I have never heard such defeat and lack of faith in the power of the Cross, the blood of Jesus and faith in the Word... to keep us free from sin... in all my life.

A sinful PAUL! Now I have heard it all.

[Justaned]

Mr Bibleman,

I respect your opinion on this matter, but I simply disagree with it, for the reasons I have previously stated. As I mentioned in my first posting on this subject I believe this to be one of the great dilemmas of the scripture. We have here the intersection of two apparently contradictory themes, but yet they must remain harmonious with each other, while being true to themselves.

I see BOTH sides in scripture, I don't deny either side and at the same time I cannot embrace one and forsake the other. Both must be true or neither is true in my opinion. You have made a good case for (part) of your opinion being valid and as I said, I agree with the scriptures you've stated. However, stating them does not negate the other.

HI Grandpa,

Read the Dake quote above with the Scripture references and you will get it.

Don't give in to the old idea that a person can be born again and still live like the devil.

There is power in salvation and you can have power over a sinful life by the power of the blood of Christ!

First, I have never stated that the body is ALWAYS sinful and the flesh sins EVERY DAY. So that presupposing that is my position is incorrect and thus the reply is also incorrect because it is addresses a position not in question.

Paul writes the the church in Corinth - I wish to speak to you as spiritual but you are babes in Christ. He compares “babes in Christ” as being the same as carnal. Now, he does not say they need to get “saved” or “saved again”. In his notes Dake comments that: “This term is used to describe the beginning stage of Christian living and that of living more in the natural than in the spiritual life.” Dake's Annotated Reference Bible.

Therefore Dake acknowledges that believers sin. Dake does not say they become “unbelievers” or “unsaved” because of this action. So is there “no hope” for these believers? Or are they simply struggling as Paul described in Romans 7?

Paul is teaching these believers, that while they may struggle with sin, living as Dake says “more in the natural than spiritual”, that there is NO CONDEMNATION because they fell, for as Proverbs say “a righteous man falls seven time, but gets up again.”

I believe the key is to “get back up again” and not to stay “fallen”, to “grow up” in Christ as Peter instructs. We are not born “grown up” but it is a process that we go through.

Hi Grandfather,

Above you said: "I believe the key is to “get back up again” and not to stay “fallen”, to “grow up” in Christ as Peter instructs."

Do you think Paul ever got back up and stopped his sinful lifestyle that he lived? (according to you)

I don't know... he did write that Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Which. is compatible to what he wrote in Romans 7.

However, you are now slowly moving the conversation away from Romans 7.

You posed a question "Does this sound like a born again child of God? And clearly it is a struggle that a born again child of God faces as shown in 1 Cor and Dake's own notes confirm, born again children of God can and do sin. So yes, Romans 7 describes the condition of a born again child of God.

You made the statement that Satan was and is defeated. While that is conceptually true, it is also to be balanced with the truth mentioned about that we wrestle with evil. If Satan is fully defeated in every sense of the word "defeated" then why do we wrestle with principalities? What to wrestle at all? Are we to assume Paul was wrong and that he should have written: There is no need to wrestle because Satan has already been defeated. If "my team" has already defeat "that team" there is no need to play the game (of life)

Alas, we are still venturing further and further from the discussion and you are still asking questions but not answering anything. Therefore since you only want to ask questions while I am seeking for you to answer them I see no benefit to continuing a discussion that you are leading away from the point at hand. Should you decide to answer the questions posed by me in a previous post on this thread, then maybe we can continue this discussion.

Hi Grandfather,

Above I asked: "Do you think Paul ever got back up and stopped his sinful lifestyle that he lived? (according to you)"

And you replied: "I don't know... "

WOW - I have never heard such defeat and lack of faith in the power of the Cross, the blood of Jesus and faith in the Word... to keep us free from sin... in all my life.

A sinful PAUL! Now I have heard it all.

So you believe Paul lived in perfection? Funny Paul never claimed that.

[macca]

How can a person be rightious and sinful at the same time?
How can a person be holy and sinning continualy all the time?
schizo-phrenia logic

1 thess. 5:23; makes no sense to these statements above

macca