Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ WHAT IS LORDSHIP SALVATION????

[Rocky]

Lordship Salvation from all the definitions that I can find is saying. Faith that is relying only on intellectual acquiescence to a set of facts will not save. Intellectual assent is not saving faith. People in many cases say they have faith (James 2:14) but have no genuine conversion. Mere verbal assent or mental acquiescence to the fact of Christ's death without conviction of personal sin is inadequate. That true salvation requires obedience, commitment, and a yielding of wills. Faithful believing is faithful obedience.

Matthew 5:3 reveals the character of a true faith. "Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. These are redeemed people, those who have believed. Here is what their faith is like.
Fundamental characteristic Humility a brokenness that acknowledges spiritual bankruptcy. They know they have nothing to offer God that will buy his favor. This is why they truly morn Matthew 5:4 with sorrow that accompanies true repentance. It crushes the believer to Meekness verse 5 He hungers and thirsts for righteousness verse 6 As the Lord satisfies that hunger , He makes the believing one merciful verse 6, pure in heart verse 7 and a peacemaker verse 9. The believer is ultimately persecuted and reviled for righteousness sake. verse 10.

That is Jesus' description of true faith. It starts with humility and reaches fruition in obedience.

Notice the word reaches fruition no one in Lordship Salvation is claiming this to be instantaneous experience but rather a walk of sanctification.

Ed what ever happen to

Peter: Believe on the lord Jesus and you will be save and your house hold

Ed, are you just over complicating things??
2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ
Also:

The Gospel of John:
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth
on him.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Acts:
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Romans
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness

1 Peter:
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

1 John:
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

According to the Bible all that one has to do to be saved is believe, not What Lordship salvation says. So who is right, the bible or John MacArther?

You are falling into easy believism. Where you are saying I say I believe therefore I'm saved but nothing has to change.

All the verses you quoted above point the start of salvation, not to the mature believer. If what you are saying is true then why did the Apostles leave their comfort and homes to go into the world to be abused, tortured and eventually murdered? Why did Peter and Paul give their lives when all they had to do to be saved was simply believe?

This Easy believism is what is destroying the American Church. People are attending church on Sunday and living like the world the rest of the time. What is the point? Without obedience, commitment, servant-hood, perseverance. Paul said we are in a race. Why race if all we have to do is sit and say I believe? Paul says we must persevere. Why bother just sit there and say I believe. Why did the early church go the Colosseum to die when all they had to do is live like everyone else and simply believe in Jesus?

If the world does not know you are a Christian I can assure you Jesus doesn't either.

Again nobody is saying you have to make Jesus Lord before you can be saved but if Jesus doesn't become Lord of your life shortly thereafter salvation something is wrong.

Ed not what time did I advocate that Christians can still live in sin and remain saved, were did I say that? Not my fault that I gave you scripture that does not agree with your theology. I am going to go with the Bible on this. The scripture I gave are for initial salvation. What you are failing to see is lordship teaches one must make him Lord to be saved when the scripture say other wise. The unbeliever cant make Jesus Lord or do anything that merits salvation.

[Rocky]

John 8:31 (NKJV)
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

[If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed] There are 1,595 "if's" in the Bible and all of them express a condition if one of them does. The condition to be met if these new believers were to remain as true disciples and have freedom from sin was: "continue in My Word" (Jn. 8:31-32); for if any man "committeth sin" he "is the servant of sin" (Jn. 8:34).
Finis Jennings Dake, Dake's Annotated Reference Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized or King James Version Text, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Bible Sales, Inc., 1997), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "Chapter 8".

[Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin] No man can commit sin and not be a servant of sin (Jn. 8:34). No man can sin and not have to pay the penalty for sin (Gen. 2:17; Ezek. 18:4; Rom. 8:12-13; 1Cor. 6:9-11; Gal. 5:19-21; 6:7-8).
Finis Jennings Dake, Dake's Annotated Reference Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized or King James Version Text, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Bible Sales, Inc., 1997), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "Chapter 8".

Romans 14:7-9 (NKJV)
7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself.
8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

Galatians 2:20 (NKJV)
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

a [I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me] The death of Christ on the cross showed me that there was no salvation by the law. I was crucified with Him and I live with Him. It is not really my life. It is His life that I am partaking of. The life I now live in the flesh is one of faith in Christ, who loved me, and made it possible for me to live by faith.
Finis Jennings Dake, Dake's Annotated Reference Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized or King James Version Text, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Bible Sales, Inc., 1997), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "Chapter 2".

Does anyone deny that Dake believed Jesus must be Lord of our lives?

So know you try to Use Dake who you have knocked and have discredited and disagree with countless times? This is classic manipulation . I am just not stupid enough to fall for it. NOT ONCE DID I SAY THE BELIEVER DOES NOT HAVE TO CHENGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You do not understand this theology you only see what you want to see? I just wished some word of faith guy taught this then you would be against it, but because your MacArther teaches it you will defend it. What in the world do you want me to say or do?

[Justaned]

Again nobody is saying you have to make Jesus Lord before you can be saved but if Jesus doesn't become Lord of your life shortly thereafter salvation something is wrong.

Ed not what time did I advocate that Christians can still live in sin and remain saved, were did I say that? Not my fault that I gave you scripture that does not agree with your theology. I am going to go with the Bible on this. The scripture I gave are for initial salvation. What you are failing to see is lordship teaches one must make him Lord to be saved when the scripture say other wise. The unbeliever cant make Jesus Lord or do anything that merits salvation.[/quote]

No one I can find except you and those that oppose Lordship claim Jesus must be Lord before you can be saved. What everyone that I know of that supports Lordship is saying that once saved Jesus must become your Lord.
Scripture most certainly says Jesus must be Lord. There is no debate on that. What you are saying is that it only has to be in word only not in action. Scripture clearly says it must be both word and action. James demands that.

[Rocky]

No one I can find except you and those that oppose Lordship claim Jesus must be Lord before you can be saved. What everyone that I know of that supports Lordship is saying that once saved Jesus must become your Lord.
Scripture most certainly says Jesus must be Lord. There is no debate on that. What you are saying is that it only has to be in word only not in action. Scripture clearly says it must be both word and action. James demands that.

Ed you are putting words in my mouth not once did I says that "it only has to be in word only not in action" Why not actually read my replies?

[Justaned]

Ed I don't care what you say. NOT ONCE DID I SAY THE BELIEVER DOES NOT HAVE TO CHENGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You do not understand this theology you only see what you want to see? I just wished some word of faith guy taught this then you would be against it, but because your MacArther teaches it you will defend it. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree because I am a little done here.. All you try to do is treat my like I am an Idiot, You cry when people disagree with and then put up your stupid quote about people attacking you. That is all you have done with this discussion is try to discredit and attack every thing I say.You even did like 4 replies, What in the world do you want me to say or do?

You have not shown one reference one quote or one instance where anybody other than those that oppose Lordship ever said someone must make Jesus Lord before the can be saved. I don't care who is teaching it. If Jesus hasn't become Lord in the life of a person that person is not saved. James said faith without works is dead. Faith in Christ without allowing Him to be Lord of your life is death. I haven't cried I haven't discredited anyone. All I said is all the evidence you produce is the testimony of liberal calvinist that oppose Lordship. Show me where a Lordship proponent said a person must first make Christ Lord, or that we earn salvation through works, or that salvation is given freely by Grace of God. What everyone that I can find that mentions Lordship or is accused of Lordship is saying is that a Christian once truly saved will make Jesus Christ Lord of their life and if that hasn't happened within a reasonable time the person is not saved.
Show we where they say something different or the where scripture says Jesus doesn't have to be Lord of our lives.

[Justaned]

Again nobody is saying you have to make Jesus Lord before you can be saved but if Jesus doesn't become Lord of your life shortly thereafter salvation something is wrong.

Ed not what time did I advocate that Christians can still live in sin and remain saved, were did I say that? Not my fault that I gave you scripture that does not agree with your theology. I am going to go with the Bible on this. The scripture I gave are for initial salvation. What you are failing to see is lordship teaches one must make him Lord to be saved when the scripture say other wise. The unbeliever cant make Jesus Lord or do anything that merits salvation.

No one I can find except you and those that oppose Lordship claim Jesus must be Lord before you can be saved. What everyone that I know of that supports Lordship is saying that once saved Jesus must become your Lord.
Scripture most certainly says Jesus must be Lord. There is no debate on that. What you are saying is that it only has to be in word only not in action. Scripture clearly says it must be both word and action. James demands that.

Ed you are putting words in my mouth not once did I says that "it only has to be in word only not in action" Why not actually read my replies?[/quote]
Okay before we both go off half cocked what are you saying. I definitely have presented my position. Don't tell me what you believe must be done to obtain salvation. Let us talk exclusively of a mature believer. Who is Lord in their life? What does that mean to them?

[Rocky]

Ed I think it is pointless because we disagree with what this theology is, so I don't see where we can go from here. Lets just agree to disagree. You know my position and I know yours. I don't want to really go any further because I am getting really frustrated. And I don't having any more to add then what I already shown. I know you are into this theology, I want nothing to do with this theology ok.
Fact- the theology is rooted in Calvinism
Facts- MacArthur teaches it, can we at last agree to that?

[Justaned]

Ed I think it is pointless because we disagree with what this theology is, so I don't see were we can go from here. Lets just agree to disagree. You know my position and I know yours. I don't want to really go any further because I am getting really frustrated. I want nothing to do with this theology ok.
Fact- the theology is rooted in Calvinism
Facts- MacArthur teaches it, can we at last agree to that?

No it is not useless. You said Lordship Salvation is heresy. I personally believe every believer must have Jesus Christ Lord of their life in word and deed, no exception. I want you to tell me what is wrong with that?

Calvinist are the ones fighting Lordship. Look at every reference you gave where someone was one a rant about Lordship they were all Calvinist. Show me one non Calvinist that is against Lordship. Show me one Pentecostal that does not believe Jesus Christ must be Lord in the life of a mature believer.

Do you know who Calvinist are? Presbyterians, Lutherans, Reformed, Southern Baptist at least in part, and most Grace Only denominations.

[Rocky]

Umm psst Ed, McArthur is a Calvinist and he teaches it. Here is a definition that is not from any bias website
This is the dictionary theological definition from the The Westminster handbook to evangelical theology:
While many Protestants affirm salvation by grace alone received by faith alone, some Protestants use 'accepting Christ as...' language, sometimes 'accepting Christ as Savior,' or 'accepting Christ as Lord', to describe a condition of initial conversion, .
If you think Calvinist are not teaching Lordship then you are wrong about that. Ed again I am not arguing the fact that one must accept and obey the conditions of the gospel. What you are not realizing, lordship teaches that this is a condition for initial salvation. So they can say if ones backslidden they did not make Jesus lord. Show me one scripture that makes this a condition for being initially born again? have you not read John 3:16 Before? Show me one verse in the bible about making jesus lord as It pertains as a condition for initial conversion. Yes I am free grace as it pertains to the definition of the theology: Free Grace theology is a Christian soteriological view teaching that everyone receives eternal life the moment they believe in Jesus Christ And so was Dake(now remember I am Talking about initial conversion)
But then again this is pointless to point out to you because you say Lordship does not teach that accepting him as lord is a condition for being saved. So that is why I say it is a dead end discussion for you and I. You like this theology because you do not believe a Christian will Backslide if he has done this. And you are confused because the word "Lord" is used in this theology. I believe Jesus is Lord but remember Lordship is not saying what you think that means.

[Justaned]

Umm psst Ed, McArthur is a Calvinist and he teaches it. Here is a definition that is not from any bias website
This is the dictionary theological definition from the The Westminster handbook to evangelical theology:
While many Protestants affirm salvation by grace alone received by faith alone, some Protestants use 'accepting Christ as...' language, sometimes 'accepting Christ as Savior,' or 'accepting Christ as Lord', to describe a condition of initial conversion, .
If you think Calvinist are not teaching Lordship then you are wrong about that. Ed again I am not arguing the fact that one must accept and obey the conditions of the gospel. What you are not realizing, lordship teaches that this is a condition for initial salvation. So they can say if ones backslidden they did not make Jesus lord. Show me one scripture that makes this a condition for being initially born again? have you not read John 3:16 Before? Show me one verse in the bible about making jesus lord as I pertains to being born again. Yes I am free grace as it pertains to the definition of the theology: Free Grace theology is a Christian soteriological view teaching that everyone receives eternal life the moment they believe in Jesus Christ And so was Dake(now remember I am Talking about initial conversion)
But then again this is pointless to point out to you because you say Lordship does not teach that accepting him as lord is a condition for being saved. So that is way I say it is a dead end discussion for you and I.

Okay you mention MacArthur is a calvinist and as far as I know he is. However what most other Calvinist point at when citing problems with Lordship is MacArthur. I have never read a thing that MacArthur has written that suggests he believes a sinner must first accept Jesus as Lord before they are able to be saved. And if he has I would like to see it because I would write him and tell him what I think of it.

What you are missing is as someone in the ministry I see one person after another day in and day out living like hell and saying I'm saved I believe in Jesus.

I have a close buddy that will tell a dirty joke at the drop of the hat, go bar crawling until they throw him out, and live with a woman, steal other people's work, find ways to cheat. Yet the church he goes to makes him an elder in the church because he testifies Jesus is Lord in his life. His conscience bothers him until he reads a Grace only blurb and then he is off and running again.

There is something wrong when a Pastor or his wife finally gets caught up in a lengthy drug addiction, where they had been getting drugs by doing visitation, using the bathroom and stealing them and all people say is they believe in Jesus and everyone has problems in their family.

Today there are known and confessed adulterers, durg addicts, child molesters, abusers, homosexuals standing in the Pulpit, sitting the pews and they are said to be good Christians that know Jesus.

And this is exactly what I see MacArthur saying, Christianity is filled with easy believism, people think all they need to do is believe in Jesus and everything else is fine. MacArthur is saying unless you make Jesus lord of your life, that you obey Jesus, that you commit to a Christ-like lifestyle and unless you persevere to live like this you aren't saved. I see nothing wrong with that teaching. Do you?

Like I said I never used the word Lordship Salvation until we got into this discussion. You said my requirement to make Jesus Lord of your Life was Lordship Salvation and it was heretical. We have since drifted all over the board and I still don't know why you say my belief that Person can not willfully sin and be a Christian. Scripture says if you willfully sin you are not of Jesus flock and I agree. Shouldn't you?