Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ WHAT IS LORDSHIP SALVATION????

[macca]

Good word Rocky
That theology goes against my experience of salvation as i did not have to change anything about my way of life.

I found myself changed in every area that i was living at that time all through the power of God in my life.

I was not in a church of any kind, i had no bible, i was not religious... i was a skunk and God changed me from the inside out
nothing to do with works or self effort, that came when i joined a church!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The church people tried to mould me into the image they wanted me to be, not what God wanted for me and it took me a long time to figure that junk out.
I thought "church" was where i would find God's people and learn about Jesus. ha was i in for a shock....
macca

[Justaned]

Hi Ed, It would be hard for me to compile all of the study I have done on this theology over the past years. I studied both sides of those that are for it and those that are against it.. Nothing wrong with a believer maturing or discipleship. How ever Lordship Salvation is the idea that an unbeliever must commit all areas of his life to Christ as a condition for being saved. Ok let me try to say this without sounding bias. And I will state facts for the most part if I can help myself lol. At its core the theology is not so much about living as a christian as it is about what conditions have to be met in order to obtain salvation, not conditions that have to be met When one becomes a believer as the book of James and the sermon on the mount and other scripture that define what it is to be Christians. Ok another aspect of this is like saying to change one's behavior in order to come to Christ. This is a soteriological Theology not a discipleship theology, I know that is a big word which simply means salvation or how to obtain it. Arminian are against it because of the calvinistic influences and other reasons that would be pointless to get into here. . Baptist are against because of the works aspect of it, Pentecostal are against it because Lordship salvationists are also cessationist . This theology is mainly popular with Calvinist circles, so this should be a red flag. Another Factor is that this theology was invented by modern day Calvinists, which should raise another red flag..

rocky
Again I'm not doubting you. I just want to know your resources. What modern day Calvinist has come out and said that to be saved a person has to do this or that? Remember Calvinist are Sola Gratia or Grace alone. I would be interested in reading what they say. I haven't been able to find anything written like you describe above so that is why I'm so interested in where you got this info. Evidently my search capabilities are lacking somewhere.

[Justaned]

Good word Rocky
That theology goes against my experience of salvation as i did not have to change anything about my way of life.

I found myself changed in every area that i was living at that time all through the power of God in my life.

I was not in a church of any kind, i had no bible, i was not religious... i was a skunk and God changed me from the inside out
nothing to do with works or self effort, that came when i joined a church!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The church people tried to mould me into the image they wanted me to be, not what God wanted for me and it took me a long time to figure that junk out.
I thought "church" was where i would find God's people and learn about Jesus. ha was i in for a shock....
macca

Macca
The change is wrought but the Holy Spirit but there must be a change. We either serve Jesus or we serve the flesh/world.
Jesus repeatedly proclaimed that fact.

[Rocky]

rocky
Again I'm not doubting you. I just want to know your resources.

I would not know were to begin, it is from a lot of resources, from both sides of the argument

What modern day Calvinist has come out and said that to be saved a person has to do this or that? Remember Calvinist are Sola Gratia or Grace alone.

No, Calvinists are grace through election not grace through faith, not based on grace alone. In Calvinism, the real test of salvation is a lifetime of "perseverance in obedience" to prove that one is sovereignly elect And then only are you sure you were chosen, How is that Grace? That is God choosing, not Grace

I would be interested in reading what they say. I haven't been able to find anything written like you describe above so that is why I'm so interested in where you got this info. Evidently my search capabilities are lacking somewhere.

Well that is why I have been explaining it lol. You can start by Googling it and then read and study both sides.

[Justaned]

rocky
Again I'm not doubting you. I just want to know your resources.

I would not know were to begin, it is from a lot of resources, from both sides of the argument

What modern day Calvinist has come out and said that to be saved a person has to do this or that? Remember Calvinist are Sola Gratia or Grace alone.

No, Calvinists are grace through election not grace through faith, not based on grace alone. In Calvinism, the real test of salvation is a lifetime of "perseverance in obedience" to prove that one is sovereignly elect And then only are you sure you were chosen, How is that Grace? That is God choosing, not Grace

Actually Calvin who wrote the Institutes of the Christian Religion, Library of Christian Classics, vols. 20–21, III. xiii. 5.
said at this referrence.

Calvin - “For, as regards justification, faith is something merely passive, bringing nothing of ours to the recovering of God’s favor but receiving from Christ what we lack. ”

His definition of Salvation is passive meaning the person does not have to do anything.

I would be interested in reading what they say. I haven't been able to find anything written like you describe above so that is why I'm so interested in where you got this info. Evidently my search capabilities are lacking somewhere.

Well that is why I have been explaining it lol. You can start by Googling it and then read and study both sides.

I have been googling it and I haven't found one site one quote one reference that even remotely suggests Lordship is something the believer must hold to to initiate salvation. Every EVERY post of I have found on the the subject whether they support or oppose Lordship all base their argument from the perspective of a mature believer.

I'm sorry I hate it when people do this to me in an effort to make me jump through their hoops but I simply can't find anything that sustains your point of view and I must call you on this. Please give me one reference where the quote, the article or teaching says the realization of full Lordship must be established before salvation can occur.

MacArthur's Book The Gospel According the Jesus which is most often pointed to as the Bible of Lordship adherents says

“MacArthur writes that faith ‘encompasses obedience,’Pg 173 and that obedience is ‘an integral part of saving faith.’pg174 Indeed, obedience is bound up in the very ‘definition of faith,’ pg171 being a constitutive element in what it means to believe.’pg173 Thus any ‘concept of faith that excludes obedience’ pg174 must be rejected because obedience is ‘indivisibly wrapped up in the idea of believing.’pg176 In fact, ‘the character of true faith’ is nothing less than the ‘higher righteousness’ of the Beatitudes of Matthew 5:3-11. pg173 MacArthur even suggests that obedience is ‘synonymous with’ faith. pg174 And he quotes with approval Rudolf Bultmann's dictum, ‘To believe’ is ‘to obey.’pg176”

I see nothing in this complex definition of Lordship that suggests that even the person most pointed at for Lordship Theology suggests or implies Lordship must be established before salvation is realized.

Again I'm not offering this as any type of defense of MacArthur or of Lordship as you understand it. I offer this as what I have always thought Lordship theology was.

Again I must reiterate you either serve Jesus or you serve your flesh/the world

[macca]

Good word Rocky
That theology goes against my experience of salvation as i did not have to change anything about my way of life.

I found myself changed in every area that i was living at that time all through the power of God in my life.

I was not in a church of any kind, i had no bible, i was not religious... i was a skunk and God changed me from the inside out
nothing to do with works or self effort, that came when i joined a church!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The church people tried to mould me into the image they wanted me to be, not what God wanted for me and it took me a long time to figure that junk out.
I thought "church" was where i would find God's people and learn about Jesus. ha was i in for a shock....
macca

Macca
The change is wrought but the Holy Spirit but there must be a change. We either serve Jesus or we serve the flesh/world.
Jesus repeatedly proclaimed that fact.

Jesus was all i wanted, He was all i could think about, i read and listened to everyone and anything i could about Jesus just to get close to Him.
Jesus consumed my being... Oh there was change, everyone could see it, it was dramatic and far reaching..
If only i had stayed with Jesus and not been led away by men i would be in a different place now.

macca

[Justaned]

Good word Rocky
That theology goes against my experience of salvation as i did not have to change anything about my way of life.

I found myself changed in every area that i was living at that time all through the power of God in my life.

I was not in a church of any kind, i had no bible, i was not religious... i was a skunk and God changed me from the inside out
nothing to do with works or self effort, that came when i joined a church!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The church people tried to mould me into the image they wanted me to be, not what God wanted for me and it took me a long time to figure that junk out.
I thought "church" was where i would find God's people and learn about Jesus. ha was i in for a shock....
macca

Macca
The change is wrought but the Holy Spirit but there must be a change. We either serve Jesus or we serve the flesh/world.
Jesus repeatedly proclaimed that fact.

Jesus was all i wanted, He was all i could think about, i read and listened to everyone and anything i could about Jesus just to get close to Him.
Jesus consumed my being... Oh there was change, everyone could see it, it was dramatic and far reaching..
If only i had stayed with Jesus and not been led away by men i would be in a different place now.

macca

Macca
As I said we are all humans and we will serve a master. That master can be Jesus or the flesh/world. We have to commit our lives to serving Jesus. To many think they can be saved but flirt with the world and it never works. As Jesus you will love one and hate the other. Our flesh has strong desires that look so harmless but in the end our flesh will destroy us.

But it is never too late as long as we have the desire to serve Jesus, to many make the mistake of waiting until all desire is gone and there is no way back for them. Sad.

[Rocky]

rocky
Again I'm not doubting you. I just want to know your resources.

I would not know were to begin, it is from a lot of resources, from both sides of the argument

What modern day Calvinist has come out and said that to be saved a person has to do this or that? Remember Calvinist are Sola Gratia or Grace alone.

No, Calvinists are grace through election not grace through faith, not based on grace alone. In Calvinism, the real test of salvation is a lifetime of "perseverance in obedience" to prove that one is sovereignly elect And then only are you sure you were chosen, How is that Grace? That is God choosing, not Grace

Actually Calvin who wrote the Institutes of the Christian Religion, Library of Christian Classics, vols. 20–21, III. xiii. 5.
said at this referrence.

Calvin - “For, as regards justification, faith is something merely passive, bringing nothing of ours to the recovering of God’s favor but receiving from Christ what we lack. ”

His definition of Salvation is passive meaning the person does not have to do anything.

I would be interested in reading what they say. I haven't been able to find anything written like you describe above so that is why I'm so interested in where you got this info. Evidently my search capabilities are lacking somewhere.

Well that is why I have been explaining it lol. You can start by Googling it and then read and study both sides.

I have been googling it and I haven't found one site one quote one reference that even remotely suggests Lordship is something the believer must hold to to initiate salvation. Every EVERY post of I have found on the the subject whether they support or oppose Lordship all base their argument from the perspective of a mature believer.

I'm sorry I hate it when people do this to me in an effort to make me jump through their hoops but I simply can't find anything that sustains your point of view and I must call you on this. Please give me one reference where the quote, the article or teaching says the realization of full Lordship must be established before salvation can occur.

MacArthur's Book The Gospel According the Jesus which is most often pointed to as the Bible of Lordship adherents says

“MacArthur writes that faith ‘encompasses obedience,’Pg 173 and that obedience is ‘an integral part of saving faith.’pg174 Indeed, obedience is bound up in the very ‘definition of faith,’ pg171 being a constitutive element in what it means to believe.’pg173 Thus any ‘concept of faith that excludes obedience’ pg174 must be rejected because obedience is ‘indivisibly wrapped up in the idea of believing.’pg176 In fact, ‘the character of true faith’ is nothing less than the ‘higher righteousness’ of the Beatitudes of Matthew 5:3-11. pg173 MacArthur even suggests that obedience is ‘synonymous with’ faith. pg174 And he quotes with approval Rudolf Bultmann's dictum, ‘To believe’ is ‘to obey.’pg176”

I see nothing in this complex definition of Lordship that suggests that even the person most pointed at for Lordship Theology suggests or implies Lordship must be established before salvation is realized.

Again I'm not offering this as any type of defense of MacArthur or of Lordship as you understand it. I offer this as what I have always thought Lordship theology was.

Again I must reiterate you either serve Jesus or you serve your flesh/the world

Ed I don't know what else to say. I already pointed these things out to you. You are jumping through your own hoops, I think you see what you want to see. Maybe you are just lacking discernment or maybe you have an agenda, What ever the case may be. I showed you this Theology so I really don't know what else to tell ya. But personally I renounce this theology or any thing MacArther teaches any Calvinistic theology, and believe anyone who teaches it is contradicting the Bible. That is my position

[Justaned]

rocky
Again I'm not doubting you. I just want to know your resources.

I would not know were to begin, it is from a lot of resources, from both sides of the argument

What modern day Calvinist has come out and said that to be saved a person has to do this or that? Remember Calvinist are Sola Gratia or Grace alone.

No, Calvinists are grace through election not grace through faith, not based on grace alone. In Calvinism, the real test of salvation is a lifetime of "perseverance in obedience" to prove that one is sovereignly elect And then only are you sure you were chosen, How is that Grace? That is God choosing, not Grace

Actually Calvin who wrote the Institutes of the Christian Religion, Library of Christian Classics, vols. 20–21, III. xiii. 5.
said at this referrence.

Calvin - “For, as regards justification, faith is something merely passive, bringing nothing of ours to the recovering of God’s favor but receiving from Christ what we lack. ”

His definition of Salvation is passive meaning the person does not have to do anything.

I would be interested in reading what they say. I haven't been able to find anything written like you describe above so that is why I'm so interested in where you got this info. Evidently my search capabilities are lacking somewhere.

Well that is why I have been explaining it lol. You can start by Googling it and then read and study both sides.

I have been googling it and I haven't found one site one quote one reference that even remotely suggests Lordship is something the believer must hold to to initiate salvation. Every EVERY post of I have found on the the subject whether they support or oppose Lordship all base their argument from the perspective of a mature believer.

I'm sorry I hate it when people do this to me in an effort to make me jump through their hoops but I simply can't find anything that sustains your point of view and I must call you on this. Please give me one reference where the quote, the article or teaching says the realization of full Lordship must be established before salvation can occur.

MacArthur's Book The Gospel According the Jesus which is most often pointed to as the Bible of Lordship adherents says

“MacArthur writes that faith ‘encompasses obedience,’Pg 173 and that obedience is ‘an integral part of saving faith.’pg174 Indeed, obedience is bound up in the very ‘definition of faith,’ pg171 being a constitutive element in what it means to believe.’pg173 Thus any ‘concept of faith that excludes obedience’ pg174 must be rejected because obedience is ‘indivisibly wrapped up in the idea of believing.’pg176 In fact, ‘the character of true faith’ is nothing less than the ‘higher righteousness’ of the Beatitudes of Matthew 5:3-11. pg173 MacArthur even suggests that obedience is ‘synonymous with’ faith. pg174 And he quotes with approval Rudolf Bultmann's dictum, ‘To believe’ is ‘to obey.’pg176”

I see nothing in this complex definition of Lordship that suggests that even the person most pointed at for Lordship Theology suggests or implies Lordship must be established before salvation is realized.

Again I'm not offering this as any type of defense of MacArthur or of Lordship as you understand it. I offer this as what I have always thought Lordship theology was.

Again I must reiterate you either serve Jesus or you serve your flesh/the world

Ed I don't know what else to say. I already pointed these things out to you. You are jumping through your own hoops, I think you see what you want to see. Maybe you are just lacking discernment or maybe you have an agenda, What ever the case may be. I showed you this Theology so I really don't know what else to tell ya. But personally I renounce this theology or any thing MacArther teaches any Calvinistic theology, and believe anyone who teaches it is contradicting the Bible. That is my position

Where did you show me this theology? You certainly described something but you never made a connection with what you described to any one or any thing that is known to be Lordship theology. Show me a quote, a reference, a statement, a description that says Lordship theology must be realized by a seeker before they can have salvation. Come on if you have studied it this long and this deeply surely you have something.
If not at least give me a person, a book, a website that I can go study and find what you say is there. I simply can't find anything and I have be diligently hunting for somethings since this subject came up. As you can tell I have studied the book (Gospel According to Jesus) most often pointed at as groundwork for Lordship theology. I read it about 5 years ago and saw nothing then and going through it again I see nothing like what you are describing.

I know and understand your dislike for MacArthur but the point is you are saying he is teaching something I can't find him teaching. I'm at a lost you need to produce something for me to continue my research. As of now. Everything I find is on Lordship is saying a mature Christian must make Jesus his Lord both in word and spirit, but there is no mention as this is a requisite or prerequisite for salvation. That we can't serve two masters. Jesus has to be more than name only Lord of our lives, if not He is nothing to us and He Himself said He would reject us.
Help here give me something.

[Justaned]

Lordship Salvation from all the definitions that I can find is saying. Faith that is relying only on intellectual acquiescence to a set of facts will not save. Intellectual assent is not saving faith. People in many cases say they have faith (James 2:14) but have no genuine conversion. Mere verbal assent or mental acquiescence to the fact of Christ's death without conviction of personal sin is inadequate. That true salvation requires obedience, commitment, and a yielding of wills. Faithful believing is faithful obedience.

Matthew 5:3 reveals the character of a true faith. "Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. These are redeemed people, those who have believed. Here is what their faith is like.
Fundamental characteristic Humility a brokenness that acknowledges spiritual bankruptcy. They know they have nothing to offer God that will buy his favor. This is why they truly morn Matthew 5:4 with sorrow that accompanies true repentance. It crushes the believer to Meekness verse 5 He hungers and thirsts for righteousness verse 6 As the Lord satisfies that hunger , He makes the believing one merciful verse 6, pure in heart verse 7 and a peacemaker verse 9. The believer is ultimately persecuted and reviled for righteousness sake. verse 10.

That is Jesus' description of true faith. It starts with humility and reaches fruition in obedience.

Notice the word reaches fruition no one in Lordship Salvation is claiming this to be instantaneous experience but rather a walk of sanctification.