Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ 2 COR 12 VERSES 20 AND 21

[branham1965]

2 COR.12:20-21 SAINT PAUL TO THE CHURCH AT CORINTH:

20 FOR I FEAR ,LEST WHEN I COME,I SHALL NOT FIND YOU SUCH AS I WOULD,AND THAT I SHALL BE FOUND UNTO YOU SUCH AS YE WOULD NOT: LEST THERE BE DEBATES,ENVYINGS,WRATHS,STRIFES,BACKBITINGS,WHISPERINGS,SWELLINGS ,TUMULTS:
21 AND LEST ,WHEN I COME AGAIN ,MY GOD WILL HUMBLE ME AMONG YOU,AND THAT I SHALL BEWAIL MANY
WHICH HAVE SINNED ALREADY,AND HAVE NOT REPENTED OF THE UNCLEANESS AND FORNICATION AND LACIOVIOUSNESS WHICH THEY HAVE COMMITTED.

[Justaned]

2 COR.12:20-21 SAINT PAUL TO THE CHURCH AT CORINTH:

20 FOR I FEAR ,LEST WHEN I COME,I SHALL NOT FIND YOU SUCH AS I WOULD,AND THAT I SHALL BE FOUND UNTO YOU SUCH AS YE WOULD NOT: LEST THERE BE DEBATES,ENVYINGS,WRATHS,STRIFES,BACKBITINGS,WHISPERINGS,SWELLINGS ,TUMULTS:
21 AND LEST ,WHEN I COME AGAIN ,MY GOD WILL HUMBLE ME AMONG YOU,AND THAT I SHALL BEWAIL MANY
WHICH HAVE SINNED ALREADY,AND HAVE NOT REPENTED OF THE UNCLEANESS AND FORNICATION AND LACIOVIOUSNESS WHICH THEY HAVE COMMITTED.

I don't have a problem with those verses, but how is the teaching that uses these verse to argue Christians can sin any different that OSAS. OSAS says you don't lose your salvation for non willful and non deliberate sin. Bibleman says you will lose your salvation temporarily until you repent.
So one says true Christians don't willfully or deliberately sins but if you do sin you don't lose your salvation. The other says Christians can willfully and deliberately sin and when they do sin and they can lose their salvation until the repent and ask forgiveness. Neither tells you how many times you can do this.

My question who would you like to watch your money. The guy that says Christians don't willfully and deliberately sin and any unintentional sin is already forgiven or the guy that says Christians do willfully and deliberately sin and after they hide your money they can repent and ask forgiveness and God separate their sin from them as far as the east is from the west?

Surely everyone has to see a problem with the thinking that Christians willfully and deliberately sin and except for having to repent and ask forgiveness have no worries.

Even better we have altar calls for people that were saved and sinned. Does that send the message we expect that behavior? If we include it in our altar calls we sure must not think it is a rarity now can we?

[branham1965]

REVED,

this is about the most heated debate ive ever seen on here.if i hurt you im..

if we could not sin Paul was misleading us.

if a person sins without conviction then they are a bastard,a cocklebur a stink weed and a tare.

the prodigal son got out of the hogpen because he was a son.

if this proves anything it proves are bodies are not redeemed yet.if they were we would never be tempted.
they are called the works of the FLESH.....not the works of the imagination.

believers CAN sin. or John in 1 John 1-2.but we must not go this way .if we do then we get page 1963 in HEBREWS the life in the Spirit Bible. personal apostacy.

[Justaned]

REVED,

this is about the most heated debate ive ever seen on here.if i hurt you im..

if we could not sin Paul was misleading us.

if a person sins without conviction then they are a bastard,a cocklebur a stink weed and a tare.

the prodigal son got out of the hogpen because he was a son.

if this proves anything it proves are bodies are not redeemed yet.if they were we would never be tempted.
they are called the works of the FLESH.....not the works of the imagination.

believers CAN sin. or John in 1 John 1-2.but we must not go this way .if we do then we get page 1963 in HEBREWS the life in the Spirit Bible. personal apostacy.

Billy I never once suggested Christians can't sin, I said they will not willfully and deliberately sin. If they do they must first walk away from the faith. The must declare Jesus was never truly Lord of their life or they are calling Jesus lax for allowing them to walk away. No master would allow his bond servant to simply walk away once he has been bought and paid for them.
This is the crux of my argument, if Jesus is truly your Lord then you won't walk away. However I believe many think they have made Jesus Lord of their lives but when temptation comes they had no problem walking away as if he was never Lord. And he wasn't as proven by their ability to walk away. If Jesus is really Lord of someone that person can not turn Jesus on and off. They have committed to follow Jesus, their will in no longer theirs, their rights are no longer theirs. The do the bidding of the master not the just when they want to, not just when it convenient but if Jesus is really Lord they do His bidding always. If they don't then Jesus was never Lord. That is what the Christian family has got to realize.

[Rocky]

REVED,

this is about the most heated debate ive ever seen on here.if i hurt you im..

if we could not sin Paul was misleading us.

if a person sins without conviction then they are a bastard,a cocklebur a stink weed and a tare.

the prodigal son got out of the hogpen because he was a son.

if this proves anything it proves are bodies are not redeemed yet.if they were we would never be tempted.
they are called the works of the FLESH.....not the works of the imagination.

believers CAN sin. or John in 1 John 1-2.but we must not go this way .if we do then we get page 1963 in HEBREWS the life in the Spirit Bible. personal apostacy.

Billy I never once suggested Christians can't sin, I said they will not willfully and deliberately sin. If they do they must first walk away from the faith. The must declare Jesus was never truly Lord of their life or they are calling Jesus lax for allowing them to walk away. No master would allow his bond servant to simply walk away once he has been bought and paid for them.
This is the crux of my argument, if Jesus is truly your Lord then you won't walk away. However I believe many think they have made Jesus Lord of their lives but when temptation comes they had no problem walking away as if he was never Lord. And he wasn't as proven by their ability to walk away. If Jesus is really Lord of someone that person can not turn Jesus on and off. They have committed to follow Jesus, their will in no longer theirs, their rights are no longer theirs. The do the bidding of the master not the just when they want to, not just when it convenient but if Jesus is really Lord they do His bidding always. If they don't then Jesus was never Lord. That is what the Christian family has got to realize.

Ed you said "they are calling Jesus lax for allowing them to walk away No master would allow his bond servant to simply walk away once he has been bought and paid for them." So God controls the believer and keeps them from sinning and walking away from him?

[Justaned]

REVED,

this is about the most heated debate ive ever seen on here.if i hurt you im..

if we could not sin Paul was misleading us.

if a person sins without conviction then they are a bastard,a cocklebur a stink weed and a tare.

the prodigal son got out of the hogpen because he was a son.

if this proves anything it proves are bodies are not redeemed yet.if they were we would never be tempted.
they are called the works of the FLESH.....not the works of the imagination.

believers CAN sin. or John in 1 John 1-2.but we must not go this way .if we do then we get page 1963 in HEBREWS the life in the Spirit Bible. personal apostacy.

Billy I never once suggested Christians can't sin, I said they will not willfully and deliberately sin. If they do they must first walk away from the faith. The must declare Jesus was never truly Lord of their life or they are calling Jesus lax for allowing them to walk away. No master would allow his bond servant to simply walk away once he has been bought and paid for them.
This is the crux of my argument, if Jesus is truly your Lord then you won't walk away. However I believe many think they have made Jesus Lord of their lives but when temptation comes they had no problem walking away as if he was never Lord. And he wasn't as proven by their ability to walk away. If Jesus is really Lord of someone that person can not turn Jesus on and off. They have committed to follow Jesus, their will in no longer theirs, their rights are no longer theirs. The do the bidding of the master not the just when they want to, not just when it convenient but if Jesus is really Lord they do His bidding always. If they don't then Jesus was never Lord. That is what the Christian family has got to realize.

Ed you said "they are calling Jesus lax for allowing them to walk away No master would allow his bond servant to simply walk away once he has been bought and paid for them." So God controls the believer and keeps them from sinning and walking away from him?

Rocky
Why did Jesus go to the cross? Besides obedience to the Father Jesus also displayed His love for us. If we don't truly treasure that love that Jesus pours out on us then we are numb. Don't mistake me saying that Jesus stands there with a club and threatens to hurt us. No Jesus stands there with out stretched arms bearing the nail marks and showers us with His love to keep us His bond servants.

[branham1965]

SO YOU ARE PERFECT THEN????
WHY WOULD PAUL TELL YOU AND I TO PUT ON THESE THINGS AND PUT OFF THE OTHERS???
AND THE LORD JESUS CHRIST WAS GOD MANIFESTED IN THE FLESH.HE TOOK ON THE BODY OF FLESH.BUT HE WAS VERY GOD AND VERY MAN.OR THE HYPOSTATIC UNION.
HEBREWS SAYS
HE IS HOLY,HARMLESS,UNDEFILED AND SEPARATE FROM SINNERS.
I NEVER SAID A WORD ABOUT COMMITTING THE 17 WORKS OF THE FLESH.

JAMES SAID EVERY MAN IS TEMPTED BECAUSE HE IS SINLESSLY PERFECT AND HE IS IMAGINING IT ALL.....NO HE SAID EVERY MAN IS TEMPTED WHEN HE IS DRAWN AWAY OF HIS OWN LUST AND ENTICED ...

THE BODY OF BELIEVERS IS NOT REDEEMED.
AND YOU COULD NOT BE MORE WRONG.IT HAS EVERYTHING TO DO WITH YOU BEING TEMPTED.YOU ARE ATTACKED IN THE MIND AND TEMPTED IN THE FLESH TO SIN.THE INNER MAN OF THE BELIEVER IS SAVED.
INDWELT BY THE HOLY GHOST.

NOT THE BODY OR THE FLESH.WE HAVE A WARFARE WITH THE WORLD THE FLESH AND THE DEVIL.end
BUT PUT YE ON THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND MAKE NOT PROVISION FOR THE FLESH TO FULFILL THE LUSTS THEREOF. ROMANS 13.the end...





roger said:

Whether or not the body is redeemed has nothing at all to do with whether a person can be tempted.

Jesus did NOT have a sin nature, yet He was still tempted in EVERY way.

If a person is participating in the works of the flesh, they have moved beyond being tempted... Having already conceived and given birth to sin... Which may bring forth death, if allowed to reach maturity (full growth).

• James 1:12-15 NKJV
  • Blessed is the man who endures temptation; for when he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him. Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am tempted by God"; for God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He Himself tempt anyone. But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death.

[/quote]

[victoryword]

When we receive our glorified bodies then we will have been taken to Heaven and removed from this world, where the Tempter rules. We will be removed (at least for a period of time anyway) from the source of temptation.

Having a glorified body will not remove free-will and the power of choice but when we are in a realm where there is nothing but unselfish love and peace, who is going to want to sin. Our time here on earth in this unredeemed flesh should be teaching us how destructive sin is and how we will not want to repeat the sad mistake that Lucifer made when he selfishly rebelled against God in the light of a perfect and "all for others" love environement.

Look around and see what a mess that sin has made. Pick up a newspaper or watch the TV news, heck even if you only watch the weather report you will see the destructive effects of sin. I think in our glorified bodies we will begin to enjoy the love of God so much we will not want to go back to the self seeking life of sin. It will be a free choice that we will make but helped by not being influenced by the sources of temptation we are currently at war against.

[Justaned]

What about lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and pride of life none of which needs the tempter to raise the ugly head of sin? If Satan was lock away the world would still suffer the effects of sin. People would lust after what they don't have and if they entertain that desire long enough they will conceive a plan to obtain that which is not theirs. If left to their own resources they will allow the plan to turn into sin. Just as James details it.

That is the problem in the American church we blame everyone but ourselves for the situation we are in. If we quit passing the blame of sin off on Satan and place it exactly where it belongs things would be different in the American Church.
We talk people up until they think they don't need anyone including Jesus. What we should be doing is showing that without Jesus they are little more than wild animals.

Classic example homosexual that brags that they have slept with 360 different people in a year. Is that love or is the same thing we see in animals that will go to another animal not in love but to satisfy an animal instinct. Think about it. This is why so many evolutionist want to convince us we descend from animals. If they can prove that then the lust desires that lead to sin are not bad but instead are natural instincts to aid us through life. without the lust of flesh, we would reproduce, we would no seek new venues for food, for money, for this or for that. So the lusts are all good according to them. Hogwash! Lust is what takes man into sin and nothing else. Sure the devil may come around and play on one of you lusts but it was your lust that made you commit the sin.

[victoryword]

What about lust of the eyes, lust of the flesh and pride of life none of which needs the tempter to raise the ugly head of sin?

I think that the Scripture disputes you on that:

• 1John 2:14-17
  14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one.
  15 Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
  16 For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.
  17 And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

First, all that you mention is associated with this world's system where Satan is the ruler (John 16:11; 2 Cor. 4:4). The overcoming of the wicked one mentioned in 1 John 2:14 is associated with all that is in the world in verse 16. So there is most certainly a tempter involved.

If Satan was lock away the world would still suffer the effects of sin. People would lust after what they don't have and if they entertain that desire long enough they will conceive a plan to obtain that which is not theirs. If left to their own resources they will allow the plan to turn into sin. Just as James details it.

The Bible once again proves you wrong here:

• Revelation 20:2-8
  2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
  3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
  4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
  5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
  6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
  7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
  8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

During Christ's 1000 year millenial reign one will be hard pressed to find someone willingly sinning. Everything will be taken care of for them by the King. It is only when they are deceived that they will begin to rebel against God.

Going back to the "glorified body" thing. When you are in a glorified body and in Heaven where every need and godly desire is met then there will be no "unmet desires". Most of the time sin is attempting to meet a legitimate desire in a selfish and ungodly way.

That is the problem in the American church we blame everyone but ourselves for the situation we are in. If we quit passing the blame of sin off on Satan and place it exactly where it belongs things would be different in the American Church.
We talk people up until they think they don't need anyone including Jesus. What we should be doing is showing that without Jesus they are little more than wild animals.

Classic example homosexual that brags that they have slept with 360 different people in a year. Is that love or is the same thing we see in animals that will go to another animal not in love but to satisfy an animal instinct. Think about it. This is why so many evolutionist want to convince us we descend from animals. If they can prove that then the lust desires that lead to sin are not bad but instead are natural instincts to aid us through life. without the lust of flesh, we would reproduce, we would no seek new venues for food, for money, for this or for that. So the lusts are all good according to them. Hogwash! Lust is what takes man into sin and nothing else. Sure the devil may come around and play on one of you lusts but it was your lust that made you commit the sin.

I think the biggest problem with the American church is either denying the existence of Satan or making it seems as if he plays no major role in the sin that is rampantly spreading in our nation and around the world. When you don't take an enemy seriously then you will do nothing about him and he will continue to steak, kill, and destroy unhindered. The American church continues with their preaching and their programs and their protests against abortion clinics and attempting to fight the spread of homosexuality through intellectual debates and put little emphasis on the fact that our warfare is a SPIRITUAL BATTLE!! THis is just the way the devil wants it and those who play down the devil are doing his work for him whether they realize it or not.