Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Does this sound like once saved always saved to you?

[Reuben]

Romans 11:20-24 (KJV)
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Paul is writing to gentile believers. He states in 22 that if they continue they will remain but if they don't they will be cutoff like Israel. Then in 23 he begins "and they also" referring back to Israel after obviously talking to the ones he was speaking directly to. If Israel comes out of its unbelief they can be grafted in AGAIN. The principle is clear.

[Justaned]

Romans 11:20-24 (KJV)
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Paul is writing to gentile believers. He states in 22 that if they continue they will remain but if they don't they will be cutoff like Israel. Then in 23 he begins "and they also" referring back to Israel after obviously talking to the ones he was speaking directly to. If Israel comes out of its unbelief they can be grafted in AGAIN. The principle is clear.

Reuben
The principal isn't clear. Paul is saying that even God's chosen people was cut off which implies so you can be also. Then he says the Jews that didn't believe in Christ can be grafted back in should they believe. He never mentions the situation where someone that was in Christ and then tossed away their relationship with Christ can come back to Christ.

You are trying to say someone that hasn't believed in Christ because the Holy Spirit has not yet quickened them to the truth is the same as someone that was has been shown the truth and accepted Jesus as Lord then threw it all away.

There lies the error of this thinking. Someone that has never known Jesus as Lord is not the same as a person that has known Jesus as Lord and then turned around and sinned until they have lost their salvation. Two different situations.

One is birthed in ignorance and the other in disregard, defiance and rebellion of known truth.

[bibleman]

Romans 11:20-24 (KJV)
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Paul is writing to gentile believers. He states in 22 that if they continue they will remain but if they don't they will be cutoff like Israel. Then in 23 he begins "and they also" referring back to Israel after obviously talking to the ones he was speaking directly to. If Israel comes out of its unbelief they can be grafted in AGAIN. The principle is clear.

Reuben
The principal isn't clear. Paul is saying that even God's chosen people was cut off which implies so you can be also. Then he says the Jews that didn't believe in Christ can be grafted back in should they believe. He never mentions the situation where someone that was in Christ and then tossed away their relationship with Christ can come back to Christ.

You are trying to say someone that hasn't believed in Christ because the Holy Spirit has not yet quickened them to the truth is the same as someone that was has been shown the truth and accepted Jesus as Lord then threw it all away.

There lies the error of this thinking. Someone that has never known Jesus as Lord is not the same as a person that has known Jesus as Lord and then turned around and sinned until they have lost their salvation. Two different situations.

One is birthed in ignorance and the other in disregard, defiance and rebellion of known truth.

Hi ed,

Above you said: "There lies the error of this thinking. Someone that has never known Jesus as Lord is not the same as a person that has known Jesus as Lord and then turned around and sinned until they have lost their salvation. Two different situations."

Would you have any Scripture that would support your claim that Someone that has never known Jesus as Lord is not the same as a person that has known Jesus as Lord

[Justaned]

Romans 11:20-24 (KJV)
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Paul is writing to gentile believers. He states in 22 that if they continue they will remain but if they don't they will be cutoff like Israel. Then in 23 he begins "and they also" referring back to Israel after obviously talking to the ones he was speaking directly to. If Israel comes out of its unbelief they can be grafted in AGAIN. The principle is clear.

Reuben
The principal isn't clear. Paul is saying that even God's chosen people was cut off which implies so you can be also. Then he says the Jews that didn't believe in Christ can be grafted back in should they believe. He never mentions the situation where someone that was in Christ and then tossed away their relationship with Christ can come back to Christ.

You are trying to say someone that hasn't believed in Christ because the Holy Spirit has not yet quickened them to the truth is the same as someone that was has been shown the truth and accepted Jesus as Lord then threw it all away.

There lies the error of this thinking. Someone that has never known Jesus as Lord is not the same as a person that has known Jesus as Lord and then turned around and sinned until they have lost their salvation. Two different situations.

One is birthed in ignorance and the other in disregard, defiance and rebellion of known truth.

Hi ed,

Above you said: "There lies the error of this thinking. Someone that has never known Jesus as Lord is not the same as a person that has known Jesus as Lord and then turned around and sinned until they have lost their salvation. Two different situations."

Would you have any Scripture that would support your claim that Someone that has never known Jesus as Lord is not the same as a person that has known Jesus as Lord

No but logic makes that claim apparent. I didn't say anything about their eternal state. Only their position in Christ at this point in time.
Surely you can see the difference between a person that has never met you and the person that has and said they don't like you and want nothing to do with you.

[bibleman]

Romans 11:20-24 (KJV)
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Paul is writing to gentile believers. He states in 22 that if they continue they will remain but if they don't they will be cutoff like Israel. Then in 23 he begins "and they also" referring back to Israel after obviously talking to the ones he was speaking directly to. If Israel comes out of its unbelief they can be grafted in AGAIN. The principle is clear.

Reuben
The principal isn't clear. Paul is saying that even God's chosen people was cut off which implies so you can be also. Then he says the Jews that didn't believe in Christ can be grafted back in should they believe. He never mentions the situation where someone that was in Christ and then tossed away their relationship with Christ can come back to Christ.

You are trying to say someone that hasn't believed in Christ because the Holy Spirit has not yet quickened them to the truth is the same as someone that was has been shown the truth and accepted Jesus as Lord then threw it all away.

There lies the error of this thinking. Someone that has never known Jesus as Lord is not the same as a person that has known Jesus as Lord and then turned around and sinned until they have lost their salvation. Two different situations.

One is birthed in ignorance and the other in disregard, defiance and rebellion of known truth.

Hi ed,

Above you said: "There lies the error of this thinking. Someone that has never known Jesus as Lord is not the same as a person that has known Jesus as Lord and then turned around and sinned until they have lost their salvation. Two different situations."

Would you have any Scripture that would support your claim that Someone that has never known Jesus as Lord is not the same as a person that has known Jesus as Lord

No but logic makes that claim apparent. I didn't say anything about their eternal state. Only their position in Christ at this point in time.
Surely you can see the difference between a person that has never met you and the person that has and said they don't like you and want nothing to do with you.

No, I don't see where God treats someone who sins any differently that anyone else who sins.

If God did that HE would be unjust and of course HE is not.

[Justaned]

Romans 11:20-24 (KJV)
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Paul is writing to gentile believers. He states in 22 that if they continue they will remain but if they don't they will be cutoff like Israel. Then in 23 he begins "and they also" referring back to Israel after obviously talking to the ones he was speaking directly to. If Israel comes out of its unbelief they can be grafted in AGAIN. The principle is clear.

Reuben
The principal isn't clear. Paul is saying that even God's chosen people was cut off which implies so you can be also. Then he says the Jews that didn't believe in Christ can be grafted back in should they believe. He never mentions the situation where someone that was in Christ and then tossed away their relationship with Christ can come back to Christ.

You are trying to say someone that hasn't believed in Christ because the Holy Spirit has not yet quickened them to the truth is the same as someone that was has been shown the truth and accepted Jesus as Lord then threw it all away.

There lies the error of this thinking. Someone that has never known Jesus as Lord is not the same as a person that has known Jesus as Lord and then turned around and sinned until they have lost their salvation. Two different situations.

One is birthed in ignorance and the other in disregard, defiance and rebellion of known truth.

Hi ed,

Above you said: "There lies the error of this thinking. Someone that has never known Jesus as Lord is not the same as a person that has known Jesus as Lord and then turned around and sinned until they have lost their salvation. Two different situations."

Would you have any Scripture that would support your claim that Someone that has never known Jesus as Lord is not the same as a person that has known Jesus as Lord

No but logic makes that claim apparent. I didn't say anything about their eternal state. Only their position in Christ at this point in time.
Surely you can see the difference between a person that has never met you and the person that has and said they don't like you and want nothing to do with you.

No, I don't see where God treats someone who sins any differently that anyone else who sins.

If God did that HE would be unjust and of course HE is not.

This is about ones position in Christ, both are sinners therefore without forgiveness they are both destined to damnation
The difference is one has accepted Christ's payment for his sins and then threw it away as if it is worthless and the other has not. The one that has not accepted and rejected Christ can come to the saving knowledge of Christ just as any first time believer. The other accepted it and then decided it was not worth anything to him and trampled it into the mud.

As I said without a change in their spiritual state the one that never knew Christ is the same as the one that did and rejected his salvation. So in the view of them as being in their sin state they are treated the same.

[bibleman]

Romans 11:20-24 (KJV)
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Paul is writing to gentile believers. He states in 22 that if they continue they will remain but if they don't they will be cutoff like Israel. Then in 23 he begins "and they also" referring back to Israel after obviously talking to the ones he was speaking directly to. If Israel comes out of its unbelief they can be grafted in AGAIN. The principle is clear.

Reuben
The principal isn't clear. Paul is saying that even God's chosen people was cut off which implies so you can be also. Then he says the Jews that didn't believe in Christ can be grafted back in should they believe. He never mentions the situation where someone that was in Christ and then tossed away their relationship with Christ can come back to Christ.

You are trying to say someone that hasn't believed in Christ because the Holy Spirit has not yet quickened them to the truth is the same as someone that was has been shown the truth and accepted Jesus as Lord then threw it all away.

There lies the error of this thinking. Someone that has never known Jesus as Lord is not the same as a person that has known Jesus as Lord and then turned around and sinned until they have lost their salvation. Two different situations.

One is birthed in ignorance and the other in disregard, defiance and rebellion of known truth.

Hi ed,

Above you said: "There lies the error of this thinking. Someone that has never known Jesus as Lord is not the same as a person that has known Jesus as Lord and then turned around and sinned until they have lost their salvation. Two different situations."

Would you have any Scripture that would support your claim that Someone that has never known Jesus as Lord is not the same as a person that has known Jesus as Lord

No but logic makes that claim apparent. I didn't say anything about their eternal state. Only their position in Christ at this point in time.
Surely you can see the difference between a person that has never met you and the person that has and said they don't like you and want nothing to do with you.

No, I don't see where God treats someone who sins any differently that anyone else who sins.

If God did that HE would be unjust and of course HE is not.

This is about ones position in Christ, both are sinners therefore without forgiveness they are both destined to damnation
The difference is one has accepted Christ's payment for his sins and then threw it away as if it is worthless and the other has not. The one that has not accepted and rejected Christ can come to the saving knowledge of Christ just as any first time believer. The other accepted it and then decided it was not worth anything to him and trampled it into the mud.

As I said without a change in their spiritual state the one that never knew Christ is the same as the one that did and rejected his salvation. So in the view of them as being in their sin state they are treated the same.

Hi ed,

Above you said: "As I said without a change in their spiritual state the one that never knew Christ is the same as the one that did and rejected his salvation. So in the view of them as being in their sin state they are treated the same."

OK fine, then they both can be saved if they so believe and call on the name of the Lord Jesus!

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

No problem.

[Justaned]

Romans 11:20-24 (KJV)
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Paul is writing to gentile believers. He states in 22 that if they continue they will remain but if they don't they will be cutoff like Israel. Then in 23 he begins "and they also" referring back to Israel after obviously talking to the ones he was speaking directly to. If Israel comes out of its unbelief they can be grafted in AGAIN. The principle is clear.

Reuben
The principal isn't clear. Paul is saying that even God's chosen people was cut off which implies so you can be also. Then he says the Jews that didn't believe in Christ can be grafted back in should they believe. He never mentions the situation where someone that was in Christ and then tossed away their relationship with Christ can come back to Christ.

You are trying to say someone that hasn't believed in Christ because the Holy Spirit has not yet quickened them to the truth is the same as someone that was has been shown the truth and accepted Jesus as Lord then threw it all away.

There lies the error of this thinking. Someone that has never known Jesus as Lord is not the same as a person that has known Jesus as Lord and then turned around and sinned until they have lost their salvation. Two different situations.

One is birthed in ignorance and the other in disregard, defiance and rebellion of known truth.

Hi ed,

Above you said: "There lies the error of this thinking. Someone that has never known Jesus as Lord is not the same as a person that has known Jesus as Lord and then turned around and sinned until they have lost their salvation. Two different situations."

Would you have any Scripture that would support your claim that Someone that has never known Jesus as Lord is not the same as a person that has known Jesus as Lord

No but logic makes that claim apparent. I didn't say anything about their eternal state. Only their position in Christ at this point in time.
Surely you can see the difference between a person that has never met you and the person that has and said they don't like you and want nothing to do with you.

No, I don't see where God treats someone who sins any differently that anyone else who sins.

If God did that HE would be unjust and of course HE is not.

This is about ones position in Christ, both are sinners therefore without forgiveness they are both destined to damnation
The difference is one has accepted Christ's payment for his sins and then threw it away as if it is worthless and the other has not. The one that has not accepted and rejected Christ can come to the saving knowledge of Christ just as any first time believer. The other accepted it and then decided it was not worth anything to him and trampled it into the mud.

As I said without a change in their spiritual state the one that never knew Christ is the same as the one that did and rejected his salvation. So in the view of them as being in their sin state they are treated the same.

Hi ed,

Above you said: "As I said without a change in their spiritual state the one that never knew Christ is the same as the one that did and rejected his salvation. So in the view of them as being in their sin state they are treated the same."

OK fine, then they both can be saved if they so believe and call on the name of the Lord Jesus!

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

No problem.

According to Hebrews 6 and Hebrew 10 that is not how it works. While both are in sin one has accepted and rejected Jesus payment for their sin and there isn't anything left for them to call upon. The other has not and still has a chance at salvation should the Holy Spirit quicken their heart to the truth of Jesus.
I guess what I'm saying is what Jesus said no comes to Him unless they are first called by the Father and the Holy Spirit only calls once.

[bibleman]

According to Hebrews 6 and Hebrew 10 that is not how it works. While both are in sin one has accepted and rejected Jesus payment for their sin and there isn't anything left for them to call upon. The other has not and still has a chance at salvation should the Holy Spirit quicken their heart to the truth of Jesus.
I guess what I'm saying is what Jesus said no comes to Him unless they are first called by the Father and the Holy Spirit only calls once.

What you are missing Ed,...

Is that the person that has rejected Jesus payment can REPENT and accept Jesus payment for sin.

So the truth remains!

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[Justaned]

According to Hebrews 6 and Hebrew 10 that is not how it works. While both are in sin one has accepted and rejected Jesus payment for their sin and there isn't anything left for them to call upon. The other has not and still has a chance at salvation should the Holy Spirit quicken their heart to the truth of Jesus.
I guess what I'm saying is what Jesus said no comes to Him unless they are first called by the Father and the Holy Spirit only calls once.

What you are missing Ed,...

Is that the person that has rejected Jesus payment can REPENT and accept Jesus payment for sin.

So the truth remains!

Romans 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

What makes them repent?