Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Finis Dake on "Paul's Thorn in the Flesh"

[victoryword]

Finis Dake deals with a number of excuses for unbelief in relation to divine healing. One of them is the famous "Paul's thorn in the flesh" which some claim to be sickness. Dake deals with this as follows:

• Some people stumble over Paul's thorn in the flesh and claim that God will not heal some people. His thorn in the flesh was not weak eyes as most men teach. It was plainly "an angel of Satan," for the Greek word for messenger in 2 Cor. 12:7 means angel and not disease. This angel followed Paul and caused all the sufferings he listed in 2 cor. 11 which were sent to keep him humble lest he should be exalted above measure. (Dake, GPFM, p. 255)

While I am not sure that I agree with Dake on why this angel of Satan was sent, I agree with him fully on the fact that this "thorn" was not disease. Dake explains further in the book using numerous Bible references the idiom of a "thorn" in Hebrew culture and what it actually represented (which was never disease).

[victoryword]

I would disagree (and I am sure that Dake would agree with me) that God does not partner with Satan to help us be humble. Scripture tells us:

• Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. (1 Pet. 5:6-9)
  
  But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.... Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. (James 4:6-7)

God wants to exalt us. Satan wants to keep us down. In light of the above, I believe that Satan sent the fallen angel to harass Paul and keep him from the exaltation that God desired to give him. God does not need Satan to help us become humble. He tells us that we are fully capable of humbling ourselves. Based on the above passages, Satan is no partner in our humility. We are to resist Him while humbling ourselves. Paul would also later learn that God's grace was enough for him to do that.

Now, most of what Dake taught on this thorn in the flesh was FANTASTIC. I don't want my disagreement with 1% of his teaching to cause anyone to be disheartened

[branham1965]

the angel was an evil angel right????? not a holy angel????

[victoryword]

Definitely Billy. It would have to be one of the angels that fell with Satan (Matt. 25:41; Rev. 12:1-11; 20:1-3). When Paul turned his life over to Christ, Jesus told Ananias to go and pray for Paul. When Ananias protested Jesus told him, "For I will shew him how great things he must suffer for my name's sake." (Acts 9:18). 1 Pet. 5:8-9 and Rev. 2:9-10 among other passages are clear that suffering is from Satan and not from God. Paul would suffer attacks from Satan in many different forms as described in 2 Cor. 11.

A sick man could never have endured and lived through all that Paul lived through in 2 Cor. 11. The grace of God gave him victory in these circumstances.

[Rocky]

I would disagree (and I am sure that Dake would agree with me) that God does not partner with Satan to help us be humble. Scripture tells us:

• Humble yourselves therefore under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time: Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you. Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist stedfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. (1 Pet. 5:6-9)
  
  But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.... Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up. (James 4:6-7)

God wants to exalt us. Satan wants to keep us down. In light of the above, I believe that Satan sent the fallen angel to harass Paul and keep him from the exaltation that God desired to give him. God does not need Satan to help us become humble. He tells us that we are fully capable of humbling ourselves. Based on the above passages, Satan is no partner in our humility. We are to resist Him while humbling ourselves. Paul would also later learn that God's grace was enough for him to do that.

Now, most of what Dake taught on this thorn in the flesh was FANTASTIC. I don't want my disagreement with 1% of his teaching to cause anyone to be disheartened

Do you think that God would allow satan to maybe humble or even to get his will accomplished? Remember God allowed a demon spirit to cause someone to lie. So maybe God would allow this thorn in the flesh to humble someone. But I do get what you are saying.. But we do know God does allow the free will to be tested and Satan is still allowed to continue what he does because of that.

[victoryword]

Do you think that God would allow satan to maybe humble or even to get his will accomplished? Remember God allowed a demon spirit to cause someone to lie. So maybe God would allow this thorn in the flesh to humble someone. But I do get what you are saying.. But we do know God does allow the free will to be tested and Satan is still allowed to continue what he does because of that.

Hey Rocky

That actually is not a valid point when you read the whole story. King Ahab chose to be deceived so God permitted the spirit to give this UNGODLY king what he wanted. I actually do a thorough exposition on this in my book, "The Word of Truth: The Firm Basis for a Grounded Trust in God that Leads to Triumphant Living".



Paul was a godly man and a child of God. Satan is both an enemy of God and man. He is opposed to God and has no intention of helping God humble someone like Paul. If anything he would be finding a way to destroy Paul (as he did with Ahab) considering the great damage that Paul was doing to his kingdom.

[Rocky]

Do you think that God would allow satan to maybe humble or even to get his will accomplished? Remember God allowed a demon spirit to cause someone to lie. So maybe God would allow this thorn in the flesh to humble someone. But I do get what you are saying.. But we do know God does allow the free will to be tested and Satan is still allowed to continue what he does because of that.

Hey Rocky

That actually is not a valid point when you read the whole story. King Ahab chose to be deceived so God permitted the spirit to give this UNGODLY king what he wanted. I actually do a thorough exposition on this in my book, "The Word of Truth: The Firm Basis for a Grounded Trust in God that Leads to Triumphant Living".



Paul was a godly man and a child of God. Satan is both an enemy of God and man. He is opposed to God and has no intention of helping God humble someone like Paul. If anything he would be finding a way to destroy Paul (as he did with Ahab) considering the great damage that Paul was doing to his kingdom.

Wait, so you are Troy Edwards!! I have been reading your blogs and teachings lol. Did not know all this time that you are he. Any way I agree with you about Ahab I was just trying to bring up the point that God does allow Satan, fallen angels, and demon spirits to do what they do for certain things. Not that he uses them, but does at times allow things. Yes paul was a man of God, now I do believe this was Satan's attempt to prevent Paul from evangelizing. But is there any chance that God may have allowed it? Now in saying that, I do not believe it was a sickness or a disease. I do not believe that God uses sickness to humble his children. But we do know God does allows persecutions in fact that is one of the only things that we are not really promised protection from, would you agree?

[victoryword]

Wait, so you are Troy Edwards!! I have been reading your blogs and teachings lol. Did not know all this time that you are he. Any way I agree with you about Ahab I was just trying to bring up the point that God does allow Satan, fallen angels, and demon spirits to do what they do for certain things. Not that he uses them, but does at times allow things. Yes paul was a man of God, now I do believe this was Satan's attempt to prevent Paul from evangelizing. But is there any chance that God may have allowed it? Now in saying that, I do not believe it was a sickness or a disease. I do not believe that God uses sickness to humble his children. But we do know God does allows persecutions in fact that is one of the only things that we are not really promised protection from, would you agree?

Yes Rocky, I am that dude

Anyway, as far as God "allowing" something like that to happen, it all depends on what a person means by that. Do they mean that God's "allowance" means He desired it to happen and therefore allowed though He Himself was not actively involved or do we mean that it was just something He did not stop though having nothing to do with whether or not He desired the outcome from what was allowed? I think it was Kenneth E. Hagin that used to say that God will "allow" you to rob a gas station if that's what you want but that does not mean He wanted you to do it.

In the case of Ahab, God certainly allowed Ahab to have what he wanted even though in the end it destroyed him, though I do not believe that God wanted that for him. In the case of the messenger of Satan who harassed Paul, God told him, "My grace is sufficient for you". We often read that as if God said, "No Paul. I want you to suffer". However, I believe that because Paul asked God three times to remove the thorn God was telling him, "Paul, I have already given you all that you need for dealing with this issue.

Grace is devil but kicking power: "But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you." (James 4:6-7; see also 1 Pet. 5:5-9)

[Ironman]

God the Father allowed Satan to tempt Jesus, (Matt. 4:3-10).

What about Job? (Job 1:12).

[victoryword]

God the Father allowed Satan to tempt Jesus, (Matt. 4:3-10).

Your point?

What about Job? (Job 1:12).

Since this is a Dake forum, I'll let Dake answer that from his commentary on Job 1:12:

• Permission of God is never the same as the work of Satan after permission is granted him: withdrawing protection and allowing another to destroy is not the same as the destruction itself. God's work is that of deliverance: Satan's is that of destruction (John 10:10; Acts 10:38)." (Finis Dake, Dake's Annotated Reference Bible, p. 522)