Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ The Power of Prayer and Confession

[Justaned]

Oh, sorry - I thought you were the guy who was big on "Not an abberrant God showed me this doesn't mean that but really means this type of reading of God's word". I was just pointing out that what Jesus said isn't what you said.

But hey, if you prefer the aberrant "this doesn't mean that but really means this", go for it.

After reading and rereading this thread you aren't trying to pick out an aberrant reading of scripture you are trying to start something.

We are both pretty much saying the same things. Our faith or our trust must be in God. That it is God not faith that moves mountains.

Incidently I have seen people (supposed Christians) ( Of the theology that I'm not allowed to mention) sit and stare at a mountain in an effort to build their faith to the point they can move the mountain.

Now would you call that aberrant theology or what?

Also you seem to stumble over my use of trust. Trust requires faith, faith is the hope, trust is the knowing. I don't worry about my faith as long as my trust in God is strong. If my trust starts to waver then I must go back and reexamine my faith.

I can believe it is possible to save my loved one. But trust says I know God will save my loved one. To me faith is good but Trust is better.

[bibleman]

Oh, sorry - I thought you were the guy who was big on "Not an abberrant God showed me this doesn't mean that but really means this type of reading of God's word". I was just pointing out that what Jesus said isn't what you said.

But hey, if you prefer the aberrant "this doesn't mean that but really means this", go for it.

Again have you moved a mountain? Has anyone in the 2000+ years since Christ moved a mountain?
You may have missed my point and I yours.

Let me restate my position and see if is so aberrant as you call it.

Jesus isn't talking about our faith moving a mountain but rather our faith in God to move the mountain of our life. I don't try to move mountains I try to keep my faith and trust in God move the mountains in my life.

Hi Justaned,

Above you said: "Jesus isn't talking about our faith moving a mountain but rather our faith in God..."

No not faith IN God but the faith OF God.

Mark 11:22 (YLT) 22 And Jesus answering saith to them, `Have faith of God;

Mark 11:22 (BBE) 22 And Jesus, answering, said to them, Have God's faith.

Mark 11:22 (CBLBible)
2292B.2
noun gen sing masc
theou.
of God.

a [Have faith in God] Literally, "Have the faith of God." Such is possible or it would not be a command. Man was created with God's faith but doubt entered in at the fall (Gen. 3:1-7). Faith is restored in the new birth and if normally exercised and maintained it will grow to fullness and power (Rom. 1:5,17; 10:17; Gal. 2:20; Col. 1:23; 2:6-7; 2Th. 1:3; 2Pet. 1:1-5).

Finis Jennings Dake, Dake's Annotated Reference Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized or King James Version Text, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Bible Sales, Inc., 1997), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "Chapter 11".

So if we are to have the faith of God - does it not become our faith?

As in:

Matthew 9:28And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
30 And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.

[victoryword]

Love you Billy

See Ed, Billy is an example of humility that you need to learn from

[Justaned]

Oh, sorry - I thought you were the guy who was big on "Not an abberrant God showed me this doesn't mean that but really means this type of reading of God's word". I was just pointing out that what Jesus said isn't what you said.

But hey, if you prefer the aberrant "this doesn't mean that but really means this", go for it.

Again have you moved a mountain? Has anyone in the 2000+ years since Christ moved a mountain?
You may have missed my point and I yours.

Let me restate my position and see if is so aberrant as you call it.

Jesus isn't talking about our faith moving a mountain but rather our faith in God to move the mountain of our life. I don't try to move mountains I try to keep my faith and trust in God move the mountains in my life.

Hi Justaned,

Above you said: "Jesus isn't talking about our faith moving a mountain but rather our faith in God..."

No not faith IN God but the faith OF God.

Mark 11:22 (YLT) 22 And Jesus answering saith to them, `Have faith of God;

Mark 11:22 (BBE) 22 And Jesus, answering, said to them, Have God's faith.

Mark 11:22 (CBLBible)
2292B.2
noun gen sing masc
theou.
of God.

a [Have faith in God] Literally, "Have the faith of God." Such is possible or it would not be a command. Man was created with God's faith but doubt entered in at the fall (Gen. 3:1-7). Faith is restored in the new birth and if normally exercised and maintained it will grow to fullness and power (Rom. 1:5,17; 10:17; Gal. 2:20; Col. 1:23; 2:6-7; 2Th. 1:3; 2Pet. 1:1-5).

Finis Jennings Dake, Dake's Annotated Reference Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized or King James Version Text, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Bible Sales, Inc., 1997), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "Chapter 11".

So if we are to have the faith of God - does it not become our faith?

As in:

Matthew 9:28And when he was come into the house, the blind men came to him: and Jesus saith unto them, Believe ye that I am able to do this? They said unto him, Yea, Lord.
29 Then touched he their eyes, saying, According to your faith be it unto you.
30 And their eyes were opened; and Jesus straitly charged them, saying, See that no man know it.

If you believe God needs faith I have to ask faith in what?

[Ironman]

The Word, Jesus, willingly divested Himself of His powers, glory, and eternal life with the Father and became a man so that He could die for mankind! The Father had faith in Jesus that Jesus would not fall into sin whilst on Earth living as a man, being tempted in all things, (Heb. 2;18), as a man.

The Father raised Jesus from death. The Father had faith in Jesus that Jesus would not sin and Hisplan for the salvation of men would fail, and Jesus had faith in the Father, that the Father would raise Him up!

"Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.:(Rev. 14:12).

"Saying, Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done."(Luke 22:42).

My 2 c, worth!

[titus213]

In Mark 11 the phrase in Greek certainly suggests more than the translation "have faith in God". It is an example of the Greek genitive being used in either an objective (have faith which is in God as its object), subjective (have faith as God Himself does), or partitive (have the faith which comes from God) sense. Grammatically, all are possible.

Various English translators have opted for all of the above.
Some old and respected English translations have, at the very least, kept the literal wording of the verse; for instance, both the Geneva Bible (the one the Pilgrims used) and the Douay-Rheims (sort of the KJV for Roman Catholics) both translate "have the faith of God".

The first time I ever read anyone comment on the phrase as "have the faith of God" was in a sermon by Spurgeon. I also read some comments, years ago, by A. B. Simpson (founder of the Christian and Missionary Alliance). They tended to take it in a partitive sense, and I agree.

I don't think the question is who or what God has faith in (though Open Theists would certainly have arguments they could use for the idea that God does exercise faith). Here is the question: is God the source of our faith, and not only the object of our faith? And biblically I think the answer is "yes, He is the source of our faith". He is the Author and Finisher of our faith.
One illustration of that fact is found in the story of the lame man healed by Peter and John in Acts 3. Peter makes this statement when explaining the miracle to the crowd that gathered: "And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all" (Acts 3.16, NKJV).
Or again "His name itself has made this man strong. That is, because of faith in Jesus’ name, God has strengthened this man whom you see and know. The faith that comes through Jesus gave him complete health right before your eyes" (Common English Bible).



It is this God-kind of faith that Peter and John had because it came through Jesus. It was not only their faith in His name, but the faith which came through Him. And I think it is this God-kind of faith that Jesus was exhorting the disciples to have.

[Justaned]

In Mark 11 the phrase in Greek certainly suggests more than the translation "have faith in God". It is an example of the Greek genitive being used in either an objective (have faith which is in God as its object), subjective (have faith as God Himself does), or partitive (have the faith which comes from God) sense. Grammatically, all are possible.

Various English translators have opted for all of the above.
Some old and respected English translations have, at the very least, kept the literal wording of the verse; for instance, both the Geneva Bible (the one the Pilgrims used) and the Douay-Rheims (sort of the KJV for Roman Catholics) both translate "have the faith of God".

The first time I ever read anyone comment on the phrase as "have the faith of God" was in a sermon by Spurgeon. I also read some comments, years ago, by A. B. Simpson (founder of the Christian and Missionary Alliance). They tended to take it in a partitive sense, and I agree.

I don't think the question is who or what God has faith in (though Open Theists would certainly have arguments they could use for the idea that God does exercise faith). Here is the question: is God the source of our faith, and not only the object of our faith? And biblically I think the answer is "yes, He is the source of our faith". He is the Author and Finisher of our faith.
One illustration of that fact is found in the store of the lame man healed by Peter and John in Acts 3. Peter makes this statement when explaining the miracle to the crowd that gathered: "And His name, through faith in His name, has made this man strong, whom you see and know. Yes, the faith which comes through Him has given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all" (Acts 3.16).

It is this God-kind of faith that Peter and John had because it came through Jesus. It was not only their faith in His name, but the faith which came through Him. And I think it is this God-kind of faith that Jesus was exhorting the disciples to have.

I totally agree that God is the author and finisher of our faith and is the source of our faith.
However there is a theological position that God does things through the power of faith. Making faith a substance which in itself carries power.
This would suggest God is unable to create something from nothing but must have the substance/power of faith to do it. And that, that power/faith is available to us. So in effect we could if we had enough faith create our own universe.

[titus213]

the Greek there is no hint, suggesttion or mention of the word substance in the verse.

It most certainly does! In fact, many Reformed theologians (like James Oliver Buswell) would be taking you to task for making such a statment, since they generally prefer translating the verse exactly as the KJV does.

The Greek word in question is 'hypostasis', and although it's a word which can have both a subjective meaning (like "confidence" or "assurance") it can also have an objective meaning (like "substance"). The author of Hebrews has already used it one time in the objective sense in Hebrews 1.3 when he says that Jesus, as the Son of God, is the express image of God's "person" (hypostasis).

I would say the best modern translation for it's objective sense is "reality". It is that which has foundations as opposed to that which is imaginary; the real as opposed to the unreal. Hebrews 11.1 is not so much a definition of faith, but a description of it. Faith is the reality of what we hope for. It is the proof of what we don't see. So Noah (as one example given later in the chapter) was warned about events he hadn't yet seen, and which were therefore unreal to him. But he responded in godly fear to God's warning and built the ark. This was done "by faith", because what was unreal and unseen became real in his own heart and mind, as he took God at His word and thus proved what he could not yet see.

[Justaned]

the Greek there is no hint, suggesttion or mention of the word substance in the verse.

It most certainly does! In fact, many Reformed theologians (like James Oliver Buswell) would be taking you to task for making such a statment, since they generally prefer translating the verse exactly as the KJV does.

The Greek word in question is 'hypostasis', and although it's a word which can have both a subjective meaning (like "confidence" or "assurance") it can also have an objective meaning (like "substance"). The author of Hebrews has already used it one time in the objective sense in Hebrews 1.3 when he says that Jesus, as the Son of God, is the express image of God's "person" (hypostasis).

I would say the best modern translation for it's objective sense is "reality". It is that which has foundations as opposed to that which is imaginary; the real as opposed to the unreal. Hebrews 11.1 is not so much a definition of faith, but a description of it. Faith is the reality of what we hope for. It is the proof of what we don't see. So Noah (as one example given later in the chapter) was warned about events he hadn't yet seen, and which were therefore unreal to him. But he responded in godly fear to God's warning and built the ark. This was done "by faith", because what was unreal and unseen became real in his own heart and mind, as he took God at His word and thus proved what he could not yet see.

When I look the word up in Greek -English dictionary attached to my interlinear
I see words like

Underlying essence, nature, reality; confidence, conviction, assurance, steadfastness.Thoralf Gilbrant, ed., “5125. ὑπόστασις,” in The Complete Biblical Library Greek-English Dictionary – Sigma-Omega, (Springfield, MO: Complete Biblical Library, 1991), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "5125. ὑπόστασις".

None of these speak to me of a substance. But I will bow to your superior Greek knowledge. But having done so I think you will agree that even the use of the word substance does not infer an image similar to one we have when we talk of the "force" as seen in the movie Star Wars.

[titus213]

Yes, I agree that faith is not meant to be an independent substance like the Force in the Star Wars films. It is faith IN GOD and the faith OF GOD.

But because it is faith in God and the faith of God, it surely does have power and is a force the individual believer has and ought to make use of, with tangible results. That's part of the point Jesus made in Mark 11, or Peter made in Acts 3, or the author of Hebrews does in Heb 11.