Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Some questions for all those that say God isn't in control

[Ironman]

Let us give credit where credit is due Joseph displayed himself as a man of intergrity many times over let us not cheapen that by saying he was looking for trouble.

Hi Ed,

Never said he was looking for trouble. But it was a dumb thing to do.

So A beautiful woman in town says she is after Ed...

Ed knows this.

Ed goes to sell a vacuum cleaner to a house and finds out it is the woman's house who is after him, (who is there alone).

She invites Ed in saying she needs a vacuum cleaner and would like to hear all about it.

Ed does what?

(A) Goes in anyway!

(B) Turns from the door and makes his next call somewhere else?

According to YOU - YOU go in anyway?

How about bouncing this off of your wife and see how she feels about it!

Thats like the guy who rings his boss and tells him he feels too ill to come to work today. The boss says he is needed and they cannot do without him at work.
The boss goes on to say, 'whenever I feel too sick to go to work, my wife takes me to bed and we make passionate love, that always fixes me up, why dont you try it. Bloke says Ok,I will.

An hour later the bloke rings his boss and says, 'Boss, Im on my way to work, and by the way, your wife is a real looker!!!!

[Ironman]

Is-stained wrote;

"Ironwood
Ever read a mystery? Does the author when the murderer is exposed say I knew it all the time?
Scripture is God writing to us, when Abraham raised the knife it was to all that were reading the account the point in time that we all knew Abraham loved God and had faith enough to trust God. It was the epiphany moment! What do you think the story teller should do here say and I knew it all the time?

What do you think God did have many different groups go through all of this until he found one that he could write about? Of course God knew he is the author and finisher of our faith."

God did not know what Abraham would choose to do untill Abraham did it as the Scripture CLEARLY AND PLAINLY STATES;
"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: FOR NOW I KNOW that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." (Gen. 22:12).

God has emisaries which He sends throughout the universe who report to Him just like any CEO. God was told by them Sodom and Gomorrah were in a bad shape with what was going on down there. God personally went there to check it out what was reported to Him regarding Sodom and Gomorrah for Himself. Had He definately known beforehand He could have stayed in Heaven and said, I know already!! send angels to warn Lot, and sent fire and brimstone to rain down on Sodom and Gomorrah.

"And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom is great, and because their sin is very grievous; I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know." (Gen. 18:20-21).

Abraham asked God if He would destroy the righteous with the wicked?

"And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?" Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?" (Gen. 18:23-24).

What was God's reply?? Was it, 'I know there are no rightious there, or IF I find fifty I will not destroy it.

"And the LORD said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes." (Gen. 18:26, 28, 30).

""Ironwood
Ever read a mystery? Does the author when the murderer is exposed say I knew it all the time?"

.
God didn't write a novel when He gave us His word. He was not making up a story. God had to test man, who He made in His image and likeness to see if man would be faithfull and true and obedient and never sin, before God gave man eternal life and control in running the universe under Him! God did not create mutons who automaticly obey. God created free moral agents who volentarily obey or not! Those who obey will be rewarded with the promised blessings, those who do not will recieve the promised punishments. Its up to us how we choose.

[Ironman]

Ironman, every hair on our heads is numbered and a sparrow can't fall to the ground without God's knowledge so isn't it probable God knew Abraham from his mother's womb and every detail of his future and that He knew exactly the number of the righteous in Sodom? I'm not an English major but don't authors and story tellers have license to use figures of speech and other literary techniques when recording a story? God certainly can choose not to know something or even forget part of a story to make it more interesting resulting in a more effective method of teaching us a truth.

These two examples are far out weighed by the abundance of evidence to the contrary.

Hi 'dolph.'

The question of the omniscience of God is much missunderstood. The Bible makes many simple statements that LIMIT GOD'S knowledge. There would be no sense to such passages if we do not believe them literally. There was no object in God saying such things about Himself if they were untrue.
God get's to know things concerning free moral actions of men as anyone else does, (Gen. 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18:21; 22:12; 2 Chron. 16:9; Zech. 4:10; Job 12:22; 24:23; Psalms 44:21; 44: 21; Psalms 139:-6; Proverbs 24:12; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 11:5; Romans 8:27 and 1 Thess. 2:4).

God sends messengers throughout the Earth who report to Him of all they find in the Earth that goes on (Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 2:4). God does nopt personally take care of every detail of His vast business in all the kingdoms of the entire universe. His agents help Him and they are found in every part of the universe on various missions for God.

Certain angels are responsible to God for carrying out His will in infinate detail concerning the billions of suns, moons, stars, planets, and all free moral agents on them. God does not personally do everything that is done in all acts and events, nor has He KNOWN, ELECTED, CHOSEN, OR PREDESTINED ALL ACTS FROM ALL ETERNITY past.

Several times God, Himself said of certain events that they did not come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21). God did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen. 6:5-7); that they would plan Babel (Gen. 11:5-7); that Sodom wouldbe so wicked (Gen. 18:21; 26, 28:32); that Abraham would actually proceed to offer up Isaac (Gen. 22:12).

God never knew whether it would take one or two or three signs to make Israel believe Him (Ex. 4:1-12); or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him or not (Dt.8:2, 16). He never knew Israel would backslide as far as she did (Dt. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19).

Furthermore, He searches to find men whom He can bless (2 Chr. 16:9). Would you billy, search for something if you knew where it was????

God's eternal plan for mankind is known by Him from beginning to end and what He plans to bring to pass on this Earth He has the power to do, but conserning the free actions of free moral agents He does not know from all eternity what they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. He does not know which ones will be saved and which ones will be lost. He has made a plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan will be blessed with the predestined blessings. Those who willfully rebel will be cursed with the predestined punishments according to His plan.

It is the plan that is known from beginning to end, not the individual conformity to it by free moral agents. Itisleft up to each and every preson to choose his own destiny. God wants all men to be saved but if man does not choose to be savedthat is his responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; John 3:16 and Rev. 22:17).
GPFM page 62.

Did God truly know men would become so wicked??? Not according to these words of His.

"And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." (Gen. 6:5-7). It repented Him that He had created mankind!

[cpbeller]

Dolph, even Dake says that God's word is true in what is written. You ask the question, "Is it probable..." Yes, it is probable. But what is WRITTEN? You, along with Ed, are trying to tell us to ignore the man behind the curtain, except it isn't the man behind the curtain...it is the h"man" in plain view. You are telling us, urging us, to just forget what is actually written in favor of what you think is probable.

Here is Dake's note on the Abraham verse...

(Dake's note on "for now I know" in Genesis 22:12) Here God confirmed what He thought about Abraham, as stated in Gen. 18:19. As a free moral agent Abraham could have disappointed the Lord, but testing him made it possible to say, Now I know. God limits His own attributes to conform to His plan for free moral agents. This makes Him no less omniscient; but makes it possible for Him to respect the sovereign will of man. Thus, God does not plan man's choices or acts, but holds him responsible for them should he choose and act contrary to the best good of all.

You ask the question, "so isn't it probable God knew Abraham from his mother's womb and every detail of his future and that He knew exactly the number of the righteous in Sodom?"

I will ask you this question: so is it probably that God would lie, and take liberty with the truth, to make a story more interesting? Because if God knew what Abraham would do, then He lied when He said it was at that point in time that He knew. And if God lied, then He is an outlaw, breaking His Own laws, and is in heaven illegally.

[Ironman]

God never knew mankind would become so wicked, in fact, It grieved Him AT HIS HEART! God's Heart ached because mans sins. If we were to say God knew men would become so sinful and created them regardless, then we could say that God is the author of sin, sickness and disease, which we know He is not!

" And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." (Gen. 6:6).

[titus213]

To me this self-limiting of God's attributes (as Dake described it) actually provides a greater picture of God's sovereignty than the supposed "Control Deity" seen by some in the Bible. He is so sovereign that He is even sovereign over His sovereignty. Even in ordinary everyday life, sovereignty never implies absolute control and determinism. Even a dictator doesn't have absolute control over all people and their actions in his realm.

It is only by redefining the meaning of the term to suit their skewed viewpoint that those who insist it does mean absolute control and determinism can make their point. I mentioned previously that the Bible shows us that God is in charge, but He is not in control. He won't even be in control during the thousand-year millennium. But one day He will be. And what a change there will be in the world when He is. So much of a change that it can only be called a new heaven and a new earth.

[Justaned]

Case in point Abraham.

God called Abraham and took Abraham to a country that God would give to Abraham descendants. God cuts covenant with Abraham, promising to bless Abraham and his descendants, God promises Abraham a son. God walked with Abraham for at least 25 years the time Abraham waited from when a son was promised until one was born. That time would have to been a lot longer considering all the happen to Abraham before and after Isaac's birth. Now here is Abraham and Isaas with Isaac old enough to carry the fire wood.

All of this had taken place before the test.

And God is JUST NOW learning Abraham is faithful?

What if Abraham had refused to kill Isaac? Do you think God would also have said I had my fingers crossed when I made you those promises. And oh by the way you are not worthy of Isaac so I'm taking him back. And I calling someone else out of the land of UR to replace you.

Of course God knew what Abraham was going to do. The only person that didn't know was Abraham himself. Talk is cheap but until you are put your trust in God to a real test of faith you don't know what you will do.

Abraham learned that day about his own faith, not about God or Isaac or anyone else Abraham put is trust in God in motion and that would be a lesson he would never forget.

There is absolutely no reason for God to limit his foreknowledge of this, so why even suggest that God did.

Again knowledge of an event or action does not requires an action or intervention on God's part.

[cpbeller]

Ed: "And God is JUST NOW learning Abraham is faithful?"

Ed, either God spoke truly and truthfully, or He is a liar. Which is it? Either that which is written is the truth, or it is not. Which one is it? And if it is not the truth, if it is God taking liberty with the truth, and attempting to make the story more interesting (as you put it), then what in the Bible can be accepted as truth? If one statement, especially when it is coming from God directly, is false, hyped up, ect, then that negates the Bible as the TRUTH.

So, which is it? Did God speak truly, or did He lie, when He said, "For now I know..."

And let me add...

I don't care about your theology, I don't care about your doctrine, what you think it should say, what you think it should mean...WHAT DOES IT SAY, and if it says that, then did God speak the truth, or did He lie?

[titus213]

How do you rank Dr. Dake among your sources and what's your opinion of him?

Hi Dolph,

For me the value of the Dake Bible is:

** in his effort to give strictly biblical reasons for the viewpoints he presents. Often this is done by means of a listing of relevant passages, and sometimes the lists seem overly lengthy or contain prooftexts that don't actually prove his point . . . but at least he is trying to base everything on what the Word of God actually says in multiple places, not just 1 or 2 pet passages (thus avoiding the charge of "prooftexting").

** in his frequent mention of the Hebrew and/or Greek words that can help to illuminate the meaning of a verse, AND how those same words may have been translated differently in other places in the KJV. As I've mentioned at various times in my posts here, it isn't really the Greek or Hebrew dictionary (lexicon) that determines the meaning of any given word, but how that word is actually used in the Bible. Dake's notes are very helpful in that regard.

** in his running outlines through the various books of the Bible. To me this is much more useful than mere section headings.

** and, of course, in being challenged by some of his interpretations; I don't always agree with him, and can see where some of the discomfort that many feel with some of his ideas comes from . . . but I am still challenged to look at the biblical basis for what he says and at least he gives his biblical reasons so I can think them through for myself

So all of that to say that he is right up there in terms of sources, and really stands apart from some of the others I use in the ways I've just listed. My opinion of him is that he was a man specially blessed by God in his grasp of the Word and his desire to be "literal" in explaining the Word.

I don't think he walked on water, but nor do I think he was the charlatan and false teacher some make him out to be (or I wouldn't be here).

[Justaned]

Ed: "And God is JUST NOW learning Abraham is faithful?"

Ed, either God spoke truly and truthfully, or He is a liar. Which is it? Either that which is written is the truth, or it is not. Which one is it? And if it is not the truth, if it is God taking liberty with the truth, and attempting to make the story more interesting (as you put it), then what in the Bible can be accepted as truth? If one statement, especially when it is coming from God directly, is false, hyped up, ect, then that negates the Bible as the TRUTH.

So, which is it? Did God speak truly, or did He lie, when He said, "For now I know..."

And let me add...

I don't care about your theology, I don't care about your doctrine, what you think it should say, what you think it should mean...WHAT DOES IT SAY, and if it says that, then did God speak the truth, or did He lie?

I don't think this has to be light bulb moment for God nor do I think if it wasn't it makes God out to be liar.
I see this passage written hundreds of years after the fact being written as any author would write of a similar incidence in any other work. The author because he is the author knows what is going to happen. But no author says I knew it all along. Duh! Of course you did you are the author you wrote it.

If God didn't know what do would you have expected God to have done had Abraham refused to offer Isaac? Just not write the story or go get another Abraham?

If God didn't know Abraham do you think God to be so impulsive that he would make all the promises to Abraham that God did?

You say you believe God is omniscience but that He limits what he knows. Why?
Where is that in the scriptures? What purpose would it serve?

You are using one remote point to prove that God doesn't know everything yet God declares Himself to be all knowing. So does that mean he is lying when God says that?

Going back to this passage the word "now" comes from the Hebrew word attah that same word is used in verse 26:22 where Isaac is digging a well and it is contested over and eventually Isaac moved to another spot and things were okay and Isaac said Genesis 26:22 (NKJV)
22 And he moved from there and dug another well, and they did not quarrel over it. So he called its name Rehoboth, because he said, "For now the LORD has made room for us, and we shall be fruitful in the land."

Does that mean God lied to the Abraham when he gave them the land and was just "now" giving them the land? That would have to our assumption if we take your assumption of now in verse 22:12.

What you saying makes not sense, has no point and in fact paints God as rather impulsive if He as God made such promises to Abraham without really knowing Abraham.