Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Some questions for all those that say God isn't in control

[Rocky]

Hello Justaned, I am not understanding this thread. Are you insinuating that God is in control of everything that happens on this planet or that God intervenes in the affairs of humans at times. The latter I believe he does at times, especially on an eschatological level and individually at times. But I do not believe God is control everything on this planet. Could you clarify this question.

I believe nothing happens outside of God's knowledge or outside God's ability to control it if God so choses. Is God involved in every decision man makes? No! Do we have free will? Yes! Can God allow man to make man's own decisions and still accomplish God plan? Yes! Is God surprised by what happens? No!

I believe that the fact that God is able to override or control anything Satan or man does proves God is in ultimate control. I don't believe any of us fully realizes how much God is involved in our lives. I further believe God allows both good and bad things to take place in our lives to develop our character to make us more like Christ.
I did not say God brought the bad things into our life, I said God allowed them to come in. Bad things come from two places our own fleshly decisions and through deception by Satan.

Oh, Thank you you for clarifying, that's sounds reasonable me. I was looking through other replies and I don't understand the issue here, unless others are tying peg you as a calvinist or something. But what you said here is biblical, I don't see the problem here.

[victoryword]

Rocky, glad you find Ed's twisted and ever changing logic reasonable.

And only I have called him out as a Calvinist (not "some", just me). My experience over the years of dealing with Calvinists leads me to my conclusions about Ed. Large prooftexting on out-of-context Scriptures concerning God's sovereignty, Calvinistic twisted arguments, but then when he is called out on it then he attempts to explain himself in a different way.

Won't take but another post for the Calvinistic tendencies to come right back out.

[Justaned]

Justaned wrote,

"Ironman
Here is where you and I tend to disagree.
Scripture says God is all seeing. That to me says God can see the future.
God doesn't interfere with our decisions but God does know what they are before we even make them. NOTICE I said we make them.

As the example of Abram, God is giving us a demonstration of faith. It would do little good if God said Abram was faithful without the story as we would have no idea what God meant. God had to allow this illustration to be played out before us so we would understand the faith of Abrahm. If God didn't know the results and since men are free will people there was the potential for God having to make the same demand on multiple people before one Abraham would be found and could be used to be the example.

When God called Abraham do you think God was prepared to call multible men from the city in case Abraham didn't accept God's command?

In effect you are suggestting Abraham's action was surprise to God, albeit a pleasant surprise but a surprise nonetheless. I don't think God works in surprises."

.

Hi Justaned.
If God knew what Abraham would do then God is lying to us because it was not untill Abraham raised his knife and was about to kill his son that God stopped him and said, FOR NOW I KNOW, not before, but after the act!

God never said; "Your a good bloke Abraham, I knew all along you would obey Me and not let Me down?
I should have created you Adam, I knew he would fail me, and Abraham would not! I could have saved myself all this trouble and I would not have had to send the Word to die for mankind either! Dear Oh dear, what have I done??

"When God called Abraham do you think God was prepared to call multible men from the city in case Abraham didn't accept God's command? "

.

Yes. Had Abraham failed the test God would have chosen another to take his place at a later time so that His Plan for man would be carried out to the end!

"In effect you are suggestting Abraham's action was surprise to God, albeit a pleasant surprise but a surprise nonetheless. I don't think God works in surprises."

.

Not really. I dont think it was a surprise to God that Abraham would obey. God had an idea of Abrahams human nature, but God had no idea at all how Abraham would choose when God gave him such an extreem test, as to do as the pagan and heathens did.

Had Abraham failed God would not have blessed Abraham as He did and God would not have said this after the test;

"By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice."

Ironwood
Ever read a mystery? Does the author when the murderer is exposed say I knew it all the time?
Scripture is God writing to us, when Abraham raised the knife it was to all that were reading the account the point in time that we all knew Abraham loved God and had faith enough to trust God. It was the epiphany moment! What do you think the story teller should do here say and I knew it all the time?

What do you think God did have many different groups go through all of this until he found one that he could write about? Of course God knew he is the author and finisher of our faith.

[Justaned]

Sovereignty isn't an attribute. It is the right to exercise royal power, and the actual exercise of it. For example, Queen Elizabeth has sovereignty because she is the Queen of England. Once she hands over the throne to her successor, she will no longer be able to exercise sovereignty. It doesn't follow her as a personal trait.
God is sovereign because he is King. But the Bible reveals that he is not yet fully exercising his sovereignty -- his royal power -- over our world. He is in charge, but is not yet in control.

The Bible presents us with a story that unfolds in actual history. It tends to shy away from giving us doctrinal information (such as “the sovereignty of God") as isolated chunks of data. Instead, it presents these matters in the context of the real world and real life.

So in Genesis we read of the Creator who made man and woman and blessed them with an amazing creation to reign over and govern (Gen 1.26 and 28). But when they sinned, they handed over the governing of this world to someone else. They were no longer governing under God. They handed over control of the world to God’s ultimate enemy, Satan himself. He became “the god of this world” (2 Cor 4.4).

That's why we read some pretty startling things in the New Testament: Satan tempted Jesus by offering to give him authority over the kingdoms of the world because, Satan said, “they are mine to give to anyone I please” (Luke 4.6), and Jesus didn’t disagree; Jesus himself referred to Satan as “the ruler of this world” (John 12.31) and Paul called him “the ruler of the powers of the air” -- the unseen world (Ephesians 2.2); the apostle John writes that although the children of God are protected from the Evil One, the whole world around us is under his control (1 John 5.19). Satan is the de facto pseudo-ruler of this world system.

It isn't until the 7th trumpet is sounded in the Book of Revelation that the rightful King assumes his sovereign power and begins to reign (Rev 11.17; see also 19.6). In the meanwhile, as Christ's disciples, we have been taught to look forward to that time, praying "may your Kingdom come on earth" and also "rescue us from the Evil One"!

Christians are like resistance fighters, battling that usurper Satan until the true ruler returns. It's like what happened in WW II when the French government caved in to the Nazis and allowed them to enter France. At the time General Charles de Gaulle was in England, and went on the radio there to encourage the French people to ignore their government's surrender, and fight against Hitler under de Gaulle’s leadership. A large resistance movement began; de Gaulle was in charge of these forces, but he was not yet in control of military and political events in France until he returned at the end of the war.

So although we know that God is in charge and can and does overrule the evil of Satan for good (Romans 8.28), he is not yet in control of this world, and will not be until Christ returns. Paul's comments in Romans 8 are in fact written in the context of believers living in a world where God is not in control, a world still under God's curse, and therefore sometimes baffling believers by the events which take place in it. As resistance fighters, we need to “fight the good fight of faith”, resisting the Enemy as we eagerly await the King’s return.

Father Fisher, well said! I like your analogy of the French resistance forces fighting the Germans before the legitimate government of de Gaul arrived. God won't be sovereign until the last trump, Rev. 11:7, and after this He won't have total control until he defeats the evil forces in the Heavenlies and Christ arrives 3 1/2 years later, after the 7 bowl judgments and the Battle of Armageddon, at the second advent, as Dake explains in Revelation Expounded. In the meanwhile, we Christians do have the weapons to fight, "resist" and defeat the devil and his forces.

First the analogy is terrible. deGualle ran when the Nazis came. He was in charge of nothing and had it not been for the American politics deGaulle would have been seen as just another general.

Unlike the analogy Jesus didn't escape He allowed us to nail him to the cross and there Jesus died sealing the covenant made between Jesus and God both eternal beings so the covenant is eternal. Jesus defeated enemy and as proof he showed his power over even death the weapon Satan loves to threaten us with. The battle is fought the war is won. Our places in eternity is assured.

What we now fight is our flesh that wants things that Jesus said are not good for us. We resist the temptations of Satan that would tell us our lusts are justified, that what we want would make us happy and we deserve happiness.
Our battle is not with a defeated foe it is with ourselves and lies the defeat foe still tries to make us buy into.

We are more like deGaulle coming back into France after the war was fought and France was freed. And like so many of us deGaulle took the glory for the battle in which he never fought.

[Justaned]

Rocky, glad you find Ed's twisted and ever changing logic reasonable.

And only I have called him out as a Calvinist (not "some", just me). My experience over the years of dealing with Calvinists leads me to my conclusions about Ed. Large prooftexting on out-of-context Scriptures concerning God's sovereignty, Calvinistic twisted arguments, but then when he is called out on it then he attempts to explain himself in a different way.

Won't take but another post for the Calvinistic tendencies to come right back out.

Victoryword
Again no real rebuttal of my position only an attempt at character assassination. Why is that? Is your position so weak you can't support it with truth? Is your only defence of your beliefs the destruction of the those that oppose them?

I believe it was you that asked for scripture reference to support what I was saying. I provided it and instantly you turned around and claimed I was proof texting. Then in the very same post you proof texted yourself.

You are so sure I'm talking Calvinism, which I'm not, that you won't consider what I am saying. God is sovereign but God also allows us freedom of choice.

You will never hear a Calvinist say that.

The fact is God is God and able to incorporate our choices into God's overall plan to make things work according to God's will. Does that mean everyone does exactly what God wants? No and I never claimed that. But as Joseph plainly said to his brothers, "what you meant for evil God mean't for good."

Joseph's brother made a free will and evil choice to kill Joseph and later decided just to sell him into slavery. God knowing this would happen allowed a caravan heading to Egypt to come upon them and buy Joseph. Once in Egypt they sold Joseph to Potiphar, where we know Potiphar's wife was unrigheous and tried to get Joseph to cheat with her. When Joseph a man of character refused Potiphar's wife decided to turn on Joseph and have him arrestted and God knew this. He already has a man open to accept Joseph if Joseph decide to display his character to him. Joseph made that decision and became 2nd in command in the prison.

God allowed people to make a choiice to send in the two men and allowed them to make their own decisions and once they did God also allowed them to follow through with what they promised Joseph. God knew what they would do which was at the right time tell Pharoah about Joseph.

Pharoah then had a free choice to call on Joseph or not to. However God knew he would and he did. The rest of the story is Joseph was in exactly the right place at exactly the right time to do what exactly was needed to save the Children of Israel exactly as they needed.

Some would say that was luck, coincidence, or even Karma I say it was providential hand of God who knows all and sees all therefore knowing what man would choose and incorporationg those decisions into God overal plan without violating man's free of choice.

Does that even remotely sound Calvinistic? If you say yes you are just being silly as everyone knows better.

[bibleman]

Hi Ed,

Above you said: "Once in Egypt they sold Joseph to Potiphar, where we know Potiphar's wife was unrigheous and tried to get Joseph to cheat with her. When Joseph a man of character refused Potiphar's wife decided to turn on Joseph and have him arrestted and God knew this. He already has a man open to accept Joseph if Joseph decide to display his character to him. Joseph made that decision and became 2nd in command in the prison."

Notice the reason Joseph went to jail was HIS bad judgement.

Genesis 39:7 And it came to pass after these things, that his master's wife cast her eyes upon Joseph; and she said, Lie with me.
8 But he refused, and said unto his master's wife, Behold, my master wotteth not what is with me in the house, and he hath committed all that he hath to my hand;
9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?
10 And it came to pass, as she spake to Joseph day by day, that he hearkened not unto her, to lie by her, or to be with her.
11 And it came to pass about this time, that Joseph went into the house to do his business; and there was none of the men of the house there within.
12 And she caught him by his garment, saying, Lie with me: and he left his garment in her hand, and fled, and got him out.

If Joseph had NOT went into the house with this woman ALONE then he would not have went to prison.

So Joseph was responsible for his gong to jail NOT God.

[Justaned]

Hi Ed,

Above you said: "Once in Egypt they sold Joseph to Potiphar, where we know Potiphar's wife was unrigheous and tried to get Joseph to cheat with her. When Joseph a man of character refused Potiphar's wife decided to turn on Joseph and have him arrestted and God knew this. He already has a man open to accept Joseph if Joseph decide to display his character to him. Joseph made that decision and became 2nd in command in the prison."

Notice the reason Joseph went to jail was HIS bad judgement.

Genesis 39:7 And it came to pass after these things, that his master's wife cast her eyes upon Joseph; and she said, Lie with me.
8 But he refused, and said unto his master's wife, Behold, my master wotteth not what is with me in the house, and he hath committed all that he hath to my hand;
9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?
10 And it came to pass, as she spake to Joseph day by day, that he hearkened not unto her, to lie by her, or to be with her.
11 And it came to pass about this time, that Joseph went into the house to do his business; and there was none of the men of the house there within.
12 And she caught him by his garment, saying, Lie with me: and he left his garment in her hand, and fled, and got him out.

If Joseph had NOT went into the house with this woman ALONE then he would not have went to prison.

So Joseph was responsible for his gong to jail NOT God.

Wow! That is like saying a woman that looks nice is asking to be raped!
Joseph's job was to oversee the house and everone within the house. If his master's wife summons Joseph he had to respond.
He was doing his job not sowing wild oats.

Never said Joseph going to jail was God's fault I said God knew Joseph would go to jail and already knew that the jailer would be open to Joseph once he saw Joseph's integrity. So God could incorporate that part of the jailers nature into God's plan.

[Justaned]

O.K. Ed, I failed to say it was a perfect analogy but there is much in common of the two events. Christ did leave the world/country, we are to battle Satan/Nazis until Christ returns, Christ will return to set up His own Kingdom/government. We are to fight the good fight of faith and resist (French resistance) the enemy until our leader returns and we will reign with Christ when He returns.

And, by the way, we don't only battle the flesh as you state but battle the flesh, Satan and the world.

The word says resist the devil not engage him in combat. If we resist the devil he will flee. Jesus already defeated him.

[bibleman]

Hi Ed,

Above you said: "Once in Egypt they sold Joseph to Potiphar, where we know Potiphar's wife was unrigheous and tried to get Joseph to cheat with her. When Joseph a man of character refused Potiphar's wife decided to turn on Joseph and have him arrestted and God knew this. He already has a man open to accept Joseph if Joseph decide to display his character to him. Joseph made that decision and became 2nd in command in the prison."

Notice the reason Joseph went to jail was HIS bad judgement.

Genesis 39:7 And it came to pass after these things, that his master's wife cast her eyes upon Joseph; and she said, Lie with me.
8 But he refused, and said unto his master's wife, Behold, my master wotteth not what is with me in the house, and he hath committed all that he hath to my hand;
9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?
10 And it came to pass, as she spake to Joseph day by day, that he hearkened not unto her, to lie by her, or to be with her.
11 And it came to pass about this time, that Joseph went into the house to do his business; and there was none of the men of the house there within.
12 And she caught him by his garment, saying, Lie with me: and he left his garment in her hand, and fled, and got him out.

If Joseph had NOT went into the house with this woman ALONE then he would not have went to prison.

So Joseph was responsible for his gong to jail NOT God.

Wow! That is like saying a woman that looks nice is asking to be raped!
Joseph's job was to oversee the house and everone within the house. If his master's wife summons Joseph he had to respond.
He was doing his job not sowing wild oats.

Never said Joseph going to jail was God's fault I said God knew Joseph would go to jail and already knew that the jailer would be open to Joseph once he saw Joseph's integrity. So God could incorporate that part of the jailers nature into God's plan.

So as a Pastor, are you saying it is alright to go into a house of a woman that has ALREADY expressed a desire to do wrong things with you?

Does that sound like wisdom?

[Justaned]

Hi Ed,

Above you said: "Once in Egypt they sold Joseph to Potiphar, where we know Potiphar's wife was unrigheous and tried to get Joseph to cheat with her. When Joseph a man of character refused Potiphar's wife decided to turn on Joseph and have him arrestted and God knew this. He already has a man open to accept Joseph if Joseph decide to display his character to him. Joseph made that decision and became 2nd in command in the prison."

Notice the reason Joseph went to jail was HIS bad judgement.

Genesis 39:7 And it came to pass after these things, that his master's wife cast her eyes upon Joseph; and she said, Lie with me.
8 But he refused, and said unto his master's wife, Behold, my master wotteth not what is with me in the house, and he hath committed all that he hath to my hand;
9 There is none greater in this house than I; neither hath he kept back any thing from me but thee, because thou art his wife: how then can I do this great wickedness, and sin against God?
10 And it came to pass, as she spake to Joseph day by day, that he hearkened not unto her, to lie by her, or to be with her.
11 And it came to pass about this time, that Joseph went into the house to do his business; and there was none of the men of the house there within.
12 And she caught him by his garment, saying, Lie with me: and he left his garment in her hand, and fled, and got him out.

If Joseph had NOT went into the house with this woman ALONE then he would not have went to prison.

So Joseph was responsible for his gong to jail NOT God.

Wow! That is like saying a woman that looks nice is asking to be raped!
Joseph's job was to oversee the house and everone within the house. If his master's wife summons Joseph he had to respond.
He was doing his job not sowing wild oats.

Never said Joseph going to jail was God's fault I said God knew Joseph would go to jail and already knew that the jailer would be open to Joseph once he saw Joseph's integrity. So God could incorporate that part of the jailers nature into God's plan.

So as a Pastor, are you saying it is alright to go into a house of a woman that has ALREADY expressed a desire to do wrong things with you?

Does that sound like wisdom?

Joseph may have been innocent and never thought about how some one would betray him his way. But if he duties as a head of the household required him to enter the house he had no real choice.

You are starting to sound like a defense attorney that would ruin the reputation of a man of integrity if it would prove you point.
Let us give credit where credit is due Joseph displayed himself as a man of intergrity many times over let us not cheapen that by saying he was looking for trouble.