Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ HE WHO HINDERS

[branham1965]

AMEN .... THANK YOU SCOTT.agape ,pax ,shalom and kimbo says woof ...oh boy he lays on his back an purrs and wants his belly rubbed!!!!soiled rotten.
you are my oldest friend on here.you are a diamond.
yes ive noticed that.last night i was told because i did not believe -though i have for 37 years - not because it was shoved down my gullet like some cult would do...sighs....but i was trying to show God can do anything.He could have made a special fish for old Jonah.like a big one in Star Wars Episode I the Phantom Menace....but see people struggle with miracles.
when i read here William Barclay said the crowds gave their bread and thats how the 5,000 and 4,000 were fed by Jesus....i was what nonsense passes for scholarship. that Jonah was not dead as the dodo in the great sea fish i deny the death and resurrection of Christ!!!!!!!!

my late Pastor was Anointed.and he was outspoken and controversial.and he said laymen and novices have no business playing preacher with a Dakes Bible or any other book to elevate themselves to a imaginary position in the Lord they are not.pretty soon they dont need the Pastor.they choose what is ...or what isnt based on their own judgement...they are going headfirst into perdition....if folks have noone over them in God....they are on thin ice...
they then Gal 6:3 and then will 1 Timothy 3:6-7 they fall in to the condemnation of the DEVIL and the ...reproach and the snare of the DEVIL.
these are the ones who OPPOSE THEMSELVES if God peradventure -maybe-will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth.and that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the DEVIL who are taken captive by him at his will.

[Justaned]

Billy, I don't hate anyone, even the enemies of the gospel. However, when some people question the most basic, most accepted facts of the Bible over and over I question if there isn't a hidden motive like deliberately causing trouble and confusion. Such people should hang out with other liberals, doubters and libertines. It's just good manners. The tribulation has been explained to Ed before. His question is so far out of the main stream that bringing it up on the Dake board is inappropriate. The Devil can appear as an angel of light, just look at how the churches have been infiltrated. I apologize if I got too much into the flesh.

First I find it very offensive being grouped with doubters or libertines by someone that exhibits so little knowledge of scripture and what is considered valid and included in what is know as orthodox Christianity.

What you obviously don't know is there many different views of the eschatology, three of which you know little or nothing about. They are only strange to you because you have never been exposed to them. Because you haven't been exposed to them you consider them foreign or wrong but that is exactly how many that HAVE studyied your view of eschatology feel about your view.

In fact I would guess a much highter percentage of Christianity views your view of eschatology as wrong or unscriptural. Presently there are four major views of eschatology and many more minor or lesser known. No well written book on eschatology fails to mention all four yet I doubt you ever considered much less studied any of them to see what scripture they are based on and what validity they carry.

I did not bring up this discussion of eschatology, you did with your gushing review of a Kat Kerr and her view of eschatology. I was merely pointing out where her view is not supportted scripturally.

[Justaned]

Post by Dolph » Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:01 pm

It's an air-tight case of whom is presently hindering the mystery of iniquity and, hence, the appearance of the Antichrist (2Thes. 2:7-8). It's the God-filled, angel assisted Church:

1. Resist the Devil and he will flee from you, James 4:7.

2. Put on the full armor of God that ye be able to stand against the wiles of the devil, Eph. 6:11.

3. Fight the good fight of faith, I Tim. 6:12.

4. We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, Eph. 6:12.

5. The thief cometh not but to kill, steal and destroy, John 10:10.

6. Your adversary, the devil, like a roaring lion walketh about, seeking whom he may devour whom resist steadfast in the faith, I Pet. 5:8,9.

7. (angels) are ministering spirits sent forth to minister to them who are heirs of salvation, Heb. 1:14.

8. Take unto you the full armor of God that that ye be able to withstand in the evil day, Eph. 6:13.

9. The serpent said unto the women, Ye shall not surely die, Gen. 3:4.

!0. taking the shield of faith with which ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked, Eph. 6:16.

11. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, 2 Tim. 4:7.

When your wife tells your son, Johnny, it's a sin to tell a lie, when the Holy Spirit tell you to forgive your boss, when the Christian voters throw a politician out of office for stealing, when you love your neighbor who just kicked you in the shins, you are "hindering, restraining, resisting, fighting" the mystery of iniquity, the devil and his evil spirits. And who are you? You are the Church.

Therefore, there is no question of whom it is who is hindering the mystery of iniquity "until he be taken out of the way. And then then shall the wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming", 2Thes. 2:7-8.

This is proof positive that the Church will be "taken out of the way" before the A/C is revealed and before the Tribulation, Jacob's (Israel's) Trouble.

The only argument FFF has against this is that all the translations of the Bible are wrong.

Now it's your turn to decide.

Be smart. Be a pre-tribber.

Post by Dolph » Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:01 pm

It's an air-tight case of whom is presently hindering the mystery of iniquity and, hence, the appearance of the Antichrist (2Thes. 2:7-8). It's the God-filled, angel assisted Church:

This is anything but air tight, there is enough holes in this logic and misuse of scripture that herd of buffaloes could run through it and never touch it.

If the case was as air tight as you claim it to be then every noted and accomplished Bible scholar of which there are many that disagree must be blind.

Your position which I suspect, because I haven't seen a recent survey, is the minority position in the study of eschatology. So it can't be all that air tight or surely one or two that don't think the "he that opposes" is the church.

Once question where in scripture have you seen the church referred to as "he"

[Justaned]

Ed, I'm aware their are many views of eschatology but I only respect the views of students that take the Bible literally and are baptized in the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues, in contrast to certain lewd fellows of the baser sort.

Not all of them since I are one and you don't respect my view.
The problem you have with my view is I take the Bible more literal when you don't and I see figures of speech when you don't.

[Justaned]

Post by Dolph » Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:01 pm

It's an air-tight case of whom is presently hindering the mystery of iniquity and, hence, the appearance of the Antichrist (2Thes. 2:7-8). It's the God-filled, angel assisted Church:

1. Resist the Devil and he will flee from you, James 4:7.

2. Put on the full armor of God that ye be able to stand against the wiles of the devil, Eph. 6:11.

3. Fight the good fight of faith, I Tim. 6:12.

4. We wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places, Eph. 6:12.

5. The thief cometh not but to kill, steal and destroy, John 10:10.

6. Your adversary, the devil, like a roaring lion walketh about, seeking whom he may devour whom resist steadfast in the faith, I Pet. 5:8,9.

7. (angels) are ministering spirits sent forth to minister to them who are heirs of salvation, Heb. 1:14.

8. Take unto you the full armor of God that that ye be able to withstand in the evil day, Eph. 6:13.

9. The serpent said unto the women, Ye shall not surely die, Gen. 3:4.

!0. taking the shield of faith with which ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked, Eph. 6:16.

11. I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, 2 Tim. 4:7.

When your wife tells your son, Johnny, it's a sin to tell a lie, when the Holy Spirit tell you to forgive your boss, when the Christian voters throw a politician out of office for stealing, when you love your neighbor who just kicked you in the shins, you are "hindering, restraining, resisting, fighting" the mystery of iniquity, the devil and his evil spirits. And who are you? You are the Church.

Therefore, there is no question of whom it is who is hindering the mystery of iniquity "until he be taken out of the way. And then then shall the wicked one be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of His mouth and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming", 2Thes. 2:7-8.

This is proof positive that the Church will be "taken out of the way" before the A/C is revealed and before the Tribulation, Jacob's (Israel's) Trouble.

The only argument FFF has against this is that all the translations of the Bible are wrong.

Now it's your turn to decide.

Be smart. Be a pre-tribber.

Post by Dolph » Fri Jan 04, 2013 5:01 pm

It's an air-tight case of whom is presently hindering the mystery of iniquity and, hence, the appearance of the Antichrist (2Thes. 2:7-8). It's the God-filled, angel assisted Church:

This is anything but air tight, there is enough holes in this logic and misuse of scripture that herd of buffaloes could run through it and never touch it.

If the case was as air tight as you claim it to be then every noted and accomplished Bible scholar of which there are many that disagree must be blind.

Your position which I suspect, because I haven't seen a recent survey, is the minority position in the study of eschatology. So it can't be all that air tight or surely one or two that don't think the "he that opposes" is the church.

Once question where in scripture have you seen the church referred to as "he"

ED, The "He" is the body of Christ.

So, Ed, who do you say the "He" is that is currently restraining Evil and will be taken out before the A/C is revealed????????????????????????

No before you get to ask a question you need to answer mine. Where else in scripture to you see the church referrenced as a he?

Incidently I did answer your question already.

[Justaned]

Ed, Eph. 2:15 proves Christ's body is masculine. (why you need proof is beyond me) Now tell me who you think is restraining evil and preventing the appearance of the A/C before he is taken out of the way, 2Thes. 2:7-8.

Dolph
Oh come on of course Jesus was masculine and anytime we talk of his body it is usually in the masculine however when the church is talked about it is usually from feminine pronoun she.

Okay not to belabor that, moving on to the hinderer. It could be the restrainting aspect of Holy Spirit, which could still remain to convict, protect and lead. Or it could be an angel that has been assigned to restrain the prince of Islam, or be the prayers of a few righteous saints that none of us are aware of that have praying against the Antichrist, or it could even be the church but it doesn't have to be raptured but simply be allowed to be lulled into apathy as we see taking place today.

The problem with the assumation that has to be the church and therefore the church has to be raptured out of the way is where the problem comes. Many different things, things we are totally unawared of could be the what is restraining the Antichrist and the fact is we simply don't know. Secondly many things can be done to remove that which hinders without anyone being raptured. God would simply issue the command allow the AntiChrist to be revealed, or He could order those that are restraining to stop be they human people acting as prayer warriors, or angels. It could even be something physical that God will remove that is now hindering the Antichrist.

Most likely in my opinion it is apathy and apathy comes in many forms.

[Justaned]

I hope my point on He who hinders does not get lost in the male/female church debate.

The assumation is we have to be able to identify the "he who hinders/retrains" and frankly we are not given enough information. Paul evidently revealed it to his disciples but nothing is recorded that tells us who it is.

It could be God himself, an angel, a group of unknown prayer warriors, a physical situation or entity, it could be the church, it could be something we can't even guess it to be.

Also we don't what taken out of the way really means. It could mean they are commanded to stop, fall into apathy, destroyed some how, physically moved aside or even raptured.

So to say dogmatically that this passage is talking about the church and rapture of the church is doing this scripture an injustice. Yes I know this has been repeated many times but that fact alone does not make it truth.

[titus213]

Whether or not the Church is called "she" really has little bearing on the question of the Hinderer. Paul described the Hinderer as both "what is hindering" and "who is hindering" in 2 Thess. 2; it is both a person and a thing.

I agree with the editors of the New King James who chose to capitalize the pronoun in the text as "He who now restrains", making it refer to Deity. The Third Person of the Trinity now restrains (that's who is hindering) and He does so through the Church on earth (that's what is hindering). Who else but God could possibly be responsible for preventing the forces of hell to be unleashed in full fury through the Man of Sin?

The phrase "taken out of the way" is not a mysterious phrase as to its meaning . . . it is widely used throughout Greek literature. It refers to taking some person or thing which is blocking the way, out of the way -- whether by removal or death.

[macca]

Whether or not the Church is called "she" really has little bearing on the question of the Hinderer. Paul described the Hinderer as both "what is hindering" and "who is hindering" in 2 Thess. 2; it is both a person and a thing.

I agree with the editors of the New King James who chose to capitalize the pronoun in the text as "He who now restrains", making it refer to Deity. The Third Person of the Trinity now restrains (that's who is hindering) and He does so through the Church on earth (that's what is hindering). Who else but God could possibly be responsible for preventing the forces of hell to be unleashed in full fury through the Man of Sin?

The phrase "taken out of the way" is not a mysterious phrase as to its meaning . . . it is widely used throughout Greek literature. It refers to taking some person or thing which is blocking the way, out of the way -- whether by removal or death.

you are a breath of fresh air, fatherfisher.

Macca

[Justaned]

Whether or not the Church is called "she" really has little bearing on the question of the Hinderer. Paul described the Hinderer as both "what is hindering" and "who is hindering" in 2 Thess. 2; it is both a person and a thing.

I agree with the editors of the New King James who chose to capitalize the pronoun in the text as "He who now restrains", making it refer to Deity. The Third Person of the Trinity now restrains (that's who is hindering) and He does so through the Church on earth (that's what is hindering). Who else but God could possibly be responsible for preventing the forces of hell to be unleashed in full fury through the Man of Sin?

The phrase "taken out of the way" is not a mysterious phrase as to its meaning . . . it is widely used throughout Greek literature. It refers to taking some person or thing which is blocking the way, out of the way -- whether by removal or death.

Carefully crafted argument spoken like at trial lawyer except a few things are left out.

2 Thessalonians 2:5-12 (NKJV)
5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things?
6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time.
7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.
9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders,
10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Notice in verse 6 the terminology "what is retraining". I don't think Paul would refer to deity or the body of Christ in this manner.

Verse seven you say the one that restrains is the Holy Spirit through the church.
What is the church restraining.
60 million abortions attest it isn’t restraining the murder of innocence.
The portrayal of homosexual life style on TV as being normal says the church isn’t restraining abhorrent behavior.
The portrayal of elicit sex and nudity on TV in movies and in literature says the church isn’t restraining carnal behavior.
The fact that divorce, child perversion, drug usage and abnormal sex exists in the church in equal percentage to the world says the church isn’t restraining this.
What is being restrained, murder? Its on the rise. Teen pregnancy? It is on the rise. Drug use? It is on the rise. Name one thing the church is restraining today. Name one thing you personally as the member of the body of Christ and part of the church restrained.

Verse 7 says the Antichrist is already at work. He who restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. You claim "taken out of the way" is common Greek, Please provide evidence of this but also know that isn't what is written in the Greek that is how it was translated. Perhaps the translators used common Old English terminology here. You think?

Be that as it may there is absolutely nothing here to support the theory of a rapture. An event that is never mentioned in scripture and something only suggested by man. Yet you all claim Sola scriptura or scripture only.

Let us see where we agree. We agree God through someone or something is restraining.
You say this must be the church, I say it could be most anything, an angel, the Holy Spirt, a group of people unknown to you or me, a physical force, knowledge.

Case in point what would happen to religion in this world if science ever produced proof that our world and even us were the products of an alien race?
Yes we know it would be false proof but what if it was so convincing that 90% was fooled.
Matthew 24:21-22 (NKJV)
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened.

This world would turn lawless in an instant. Think about it total chaos and then a man of power, rises to bring stability and peace, that man would be worshipped as a god. A man so convincing that even the faithful would be deceived if Jesus didn’t return quickly.