Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ The Sorcerer's Sin

[Spiritblade Disciple]

Acts 8:9-25 New King James Version
But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great, to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the great power of God.” And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time.

But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.”

Then Simon answered and said, “Pray to the Lord for me, that none of the things which you have spoken may come upon me.”

So when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, they returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.

Simon believed and was water baptized. And, to me, it seems reasonable that Simon also received the Holy Spirit through the laying on of the Apostles hands. Yet, Peter told Simon that his heart wasn't right, that he was poisoned by bitterness, bound by iniquity, and had committed wickedness in thinking that such a gift could be purchased with money.

Why didn't Peter also tell Simon to be baptized, again?

[Hill Top]

Acts 8:9-25 New King James Version
But there was a certain man called Simon, who previously practiced sorcery in the city and astonished the people of Samaria, claiming that he was someone great, to whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, “This man is the great power of God.” And they heeded him because he had astonished them with his sorceries for a long time.

But when they believed Philip as he preached the things concerning the kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ, both men and women were baptized.

Then Simon himself also believed; and when he was baptized he continued with Philip, and was amazed, seeing the miracles and signs which were done.

Now when the apostles who were at Jerusalem heard that Samaria had received the word of God, they sent Peter and John to them, who, when they had come down, prayed for them that they might receive the Holy Spirit. For as yet He had fallen upon none of them. They had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Then they laid hands on them, and they received the Holy Spirit.

And when Simon saw that through the laying on of the apostles’ hands the Holy Spirit was given, he offered them money, saying, “Give me this power also, that anyone on whom I lay hands may receive the Holy Spirit.”

But Peter said to him, “Your money perish with you, because you thought that the gift of God could be purchased with money! You have neither part nor portion in this matter, for your heart is not right in the sight of God. Repent therefore of this your wickedness, and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity.”

Then Simon answered and said, “Pray to the Lord for me, that none of the things which you have spoken may come upon me.”

So when they had testified and preached the word of the Lord, they returned to Jerusalem, preaching the gospel in many villages of the Samaritans.

Simon believed and was water baptized. And, to me, it seems reasonable that Simon also received the Holy Spirit through the laying on of the Apostles hands. Yet, Peter told Simon that his heart wasn't right, that he was poisoned by bitterness, bound by iniquity, and had committed wickedness in thinking that such a gift could be purchased with money.

Why didn't Peter also tell Simon to be baptized, again?

Simon had used up that "card".
It is written..."For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Heb 6:4-6)
Simon had been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, but hadn't repented of sin.
His baptism would have stood, when he actually turned from sin.
He had started the "engine", but had yet to put it in "gear".

[Spiritblade Disciple]

Why didn't Peter also tell Simon to be baptized, again?

Simon had used up that "card".
It is written..."For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Heb 6:4-6)
Simon had been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, but hadn't repented of sin.
His baptism would have stood, when he actually turned from sin.
He had started the "engine", but had yet to put it in "gear".

Interesting.
I guess I've misunderstood you, all these years.
I thought that you taught that baptism was invalid if repentance wasn't genuine and final at the time of baptism. I didn't realize that you believed that repentance could take place after baptism.

Do you believe that Simon also received the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the Apostles' hands, even though Simon "hadn't repented of sin"?

[Hill Top]

Why didn't Peter also tell Simon to be baptized, again?

Simon had used up that "card".
It is written..."For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Heb 6:4-6)
Simon had been baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins, but hadn't repented of sin.
His baptism would have stood, when he actually turned from sin.
He had started the "engine", but had yet to put it in "gear".

Interesting.
I guess I've misunderstood you, all these years.
I thought that you taught that baptism was invalid if repentance wasn't genuine and final at the time of baptism. I didn't realize that you believed that repentance could take place after baptism.

Baptism is invalid without a real turn from sin.
But with the real repentance from sin, the baptism would still have washed away the sins committed prior to it.
Sins committed afterwards, would result in either the sinner's departure, (Ananias-Sapphira, Hymenaeus, Alexander, Demas), or finally, a real turn from sin. (Hopefully, the adulterer, suer at law, and separationists, at Corinth).

Do you believe that Simon also received the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the Apostles' hands, even though Simon "hadn't repented of sin"?

No, I don't.
The Holy Spirit will not dwell in a polluted temple.
No verse says he received the gift of the Holy Ghost, so I don't think he did.

[Spiritblade Disciple]

Interesting.
I guess I've misunderstood you, all these years.
I thought that you taught that baptism was invalid if repentance wasn't genuine and final at the time of baptism. I didn't realize that you believed that repentance could take place after baptism.

Baptism is invalid without a real turn from sin.
But with the real repentance from sin, the baptism would still have washed away the sins committed prior to it.
Sins committed afterwards, would result in either the sinner's departure, (Ananias-Sapphira, Hymenaeus, Alexander, Demas), or finally, a real turn from sin. (Hopefully, the adulterer, suer at law, and separationists, at Corinth).

Q1. Okay. Do you believe that Ananias and Sapphira were saved, even though they were killed for lying to God?
Q2. How about the others (Hymenaeus, Alexander, Demas)?

[Spiritblade Disciple]

Do you believe that Simon also received the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the Apostles' hands, even though Simon "hadn't repented of sin"?

No, I don't.
The Holy Spirit will not dwell in a polluted temple.
No verse says he received the gift of the Holy Ghost, so I don't think he did.

That's fair, since it's unstated. I think it's only really a problem if the reader assumes that once a person has received the Holy Ghost, they cannot lose the Holy Ghost.

Do you believe that once a person has received the Holy Ghost that they cannot lose the Holy Ghost?

[Hill Top]

Interesting.
I guess I've misunderstood you, all these years.
I thought that you taught that baptism was invalid if repentance wasn't genuine and final at the time of baptism. I didn't realize that you believed that repentance could take place after baptism.

Baptism is invalid without a real turn from sin.
But with the real repentance from sin, the baptism would still have washed away the sins committed prior to it.
Sins committed afterwards, would result in either the sinner's departure, (Ananias-Sapphira, Hymenaeus, Alexander, Demas), or finally, a real turn from sin. (Hopefully, the adulterer, suer at law, and separationists, at Corinth).

Q1. Okay. Do you believe that Ananias and Sapphira were saved, even though they were killed for lying to God?

I do not believe they will be counted worthy of eternal life on the day of judgment.

Q2. How about the others (Hymenaeus, Alexander, Demas)?

There is no scripture indicating they turned to the truth.
We can only hope they did.

[Hill Top]

Do you believe that Simon also received the Holy Ghost by the laying on of the Apostles' hands, even though Simon "hadn't repented of sin"?

No, I don't.
The Holy Spirit will not dwell in a polluted temple.
No verse says he received the gift of the Holy Ghost, so I don't think he did.

That's fair, since it's unstated. I think it's only really a problem if the reader assumes that once a person has received the Holy Ghost, they cannot lose the Holy Ghost.

Do you believe that once a person has received the Holy Ghost that they cannot lose the Holy Ghost?

I don't think that anyone who receives the gift of the Holy Ghost ever sins again.
The sin is the proof of the fact they are not reborn of God's seed, (1 John 3:9), and the Holy Spirit is in no (NT) man born of Adam.
Repentance, from sin, is a necessity to receive the gift in the first place. (Acts 2:38)

[Spiritblade Disciple]

I don't think that anyone who receives the gift of the Holy Ghost ever sins again.
The sin is the proof of the fact they are not reborn of God's seed, (1 John 3:9), and the Holy Spirit is in no (NT) man born of Adam.
Repentance, from sin, is a necessity to receive the gift in the first place. (Acts 2:38)

Interesting.
Q. If repentance (meaning a complete and permanent cessation of sin) must precede receiving the Holy Ghost, how do you define sin? (Asking because I recently read a book where the author claimed that anyone teaching Conditional Security had to lower the standard to claim sinlessness.)

[Hill Top]

I don't think that anyone who receives the gift of the Holy Ghost ever sins again.
The sin is the proof of the fact they are not reborn of God's seed, (1 John 3:9), and the Holy Spirit is in no (NT) man born of Adam.
Repentance, from sin, is a necessity to receive the gift in the first place. (Acts 2:38)

Interesting.
Q. If repentance (meaning a complete and permanent cessation of sin) must precede receiving the Holy Ghost, how do you define sin? (Asking because I recently read a book where the author claimed that anyone teaching Conditional Security had to lower the standard to claim sinlessness.)

As John wrote in 1 John 5:17, "All unrighteousness is sin..."
The standard for sin need not be lowered for those who love God with all their heart, soul, strength, and might;...and their neighbors as themselves.