Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Dake and Divine Attributes

[patrissimo]

Heb. 4:13 says, "Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do."

Dake's DARB note f on this text says: "Gr. ktisis, created thing...Every thought, desire, and intent of every creature of God are constantly under His eyes."

This contradicts Dake's denial of Omniscience which he argued must be understood in a limited sense. He even argued that God sends angels throughout the universe to find out what is going on. But if every thought, desire, and intent of every creature are constantly under His eyes and if all things are naked and opened to Him, then why would He need help finding anything out?

[Hill Top]

Heb. 4:13 says, "Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do."

Dake's DARB note f on this text says: "Gr. ktisis, created thing...Every thought, desire, and intent of every creature of God are constantly under His eyes."

This contradicts Dake's denial of Omniscience which he argued must be understood in a limited sense. He even argued that God sends angels throughout the universe to find out what is going on. But if every thought, desire, and intent of every creature are constantly under His eyes and if all things are naked and opened to Him, then why would He need help finding anything out?

Perhaps the angels are out here in order to supply eye witness testimony, as it took two witnesses to accuse someone under the Law or Moses.

[patrissimo]

In his note on I Jn. Ch. 1 Dake says, " God as the source of wisdom, knowledge, and truth cannot have the least degree of ignorance..."

This also appears to contradict what he says elsewhere.

[patrissimo]

"Perhaps the angels are out here in order to supply eye witness testimony, as it took two witnesses to accuse someone under the Law or Moses."

Whether this be the case or not, it is not what Dake said which is what I was referring to. Here is what he said in GPFM:

"God sends messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know, the same as the head of any other business would be likely to do, so that plans may be made and actions taken accordingly."

All things are not constantly under God's eye if he needs creatures to find things out for Him.

Patrissimo

[bibleman]

"Perhaps the angels are out here in order to supply eye witness testimony, as it took two witnesses to accuse someone under the Law or Moses."

Whether this be the case or not, it is not what Dake said which is what I was referring to. Here is what he said in GPFM:

"God sends messengers throughout the whole of His vast creations to find out for Him what He wants to know, the same as the head of any other business would be likely to do, so that plans may be made and actions taken accordingly."

All things are not constantly under God's eye if he needs creatures to find things out for Him.

Patrissimo

Here is an actual Biblical account of ANGELS giving God the information.

Zechariah 1:10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.
11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.

[Hill Top]

Heb. 4:13 says, "Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do."

Dake's DARB note f on this text says: "Gr. ktisis, created thing...Every thought, desire, and intent of every creature of God are constantly under His eyes."

This contradicts Dake's denial of Omniscience which he argued must be understood in a limited sense. He even argued that God sends angels throughout the universe to find out what is going on. But if every thought, desire, and intent of every creature are constantly under His eyes and if all things are naked and opened to Him, then why would He need help finding anything out?

Did Rev. Dake elaborate on the "limited sense" that you cite?

BTW, are not the angels God's angels?
By extension then, the angels' eyes are the eyes of the Lord.

[patrissimo]

Zechariah 1:10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.
11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.

I don't see anything in the above text from Zechariah saying that God doesn't know everything and needs help finding things out. Just because angels report to God doesn't mean God doesn't know what they are reporting. I have often seen even among men situations where superiors question subordinates about things they already know; there is nothing unusual about this. God is simply giving the angels a participation in His work out of generosity. If Leon Bible's interpretation of Zech. 1:10-11 is correct, it would cause contradictions in scripture.

"Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things." Acts 17:25

God doesn't need anything.

I will now requote the relevant section in my opening post:

"Heb. 4:13 says, "Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do."

"Dake's DARB note f on this text says: "Gr. ktisis, created thing...Every thought, desire, and intent of every creature of God are constantly under His eyes."

If God needed angels to help Him find things out, Heb. 4:13 could not be true. A being for whom all things are open, naked, and manifest does not find anything out ever. Further, Dake's comment on this scripture passage even mentions every thought, desire, and intent of every creature as being constantly under His eyes. I agree. How could a being for whom all things and every creature are constantly open, manifest, and naked and even unto thoughts, desires, and intentions, be in need of help from creatures to find things out?

Patrissimo

[bibleman]

Zechariah 1:10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.
11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.

I don't see anything in the above text from Zechariah saying that God doesn't know everything and needs help finding things out. Just because angels report to God doesn't mean God doesn't know what they are reporting. I have often seen even among men situations where superiors question subordinates about things they already know; there is nothing unusual about this. God is simply giving the angels a participation in His work out of generosity. If Leon Bible's interpretation of Zech. 1:10-11 is correct, it would cause contradictions in scripture.

"Nor is He worshiped with men’s hands, as though He needed anything, since He gives to all life, breath, and all things." Acts 17:25

God doesn't need anything.

I will now requote the relevant section in my opening post:

"Heb. 4:13 says, "Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in His sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of Him with whom we have to do."

"Dake's DARB note f on this text says: "Gr. ktisis, created thing...Every thought, desire, and intent of every creature of God are constantly under His eyes."

If God needed angels to help Him find things out, Heb. 4:13 could not be true. A being for whom all things are open, naked, and manifest does not find anything out ever. Further, Dake's comment on this scripture passage even mentions every thought, desire, and intent of every creature as being constantly under His eyes. I agree. How could a being for whom all things and every creature are constantly open, manifest, and naked and even unto thoughts, desires, and intentions, be in need of help from creatures to find things out?

Patrissimo

The angels reported to God the information they had gained from walking to and fro in the earth.
It is a fact of Scripture.
I really don't have a problem with believing the Scripture as it is.

Zechariah 1:10 And the man that stood among the myrtle trees answered and said, These are they whom the LORD hath sent to walk to and fro through the earth.
11 And they answered the angel of the LORD that stood among the myrtle trees, and said, We have walked to and fro through the earth, and, behold, all the earth sitteth still, and is at rest.

[patrissimo]

Leon Bible wrote:

"The angels reported to God the information they had gained from walking to and fro in the earth.
It is a fact of Scripture.
I really don't have a problem with believing the Scripture as it is."

I understand your position but I did ask where does the text actually say that God needed to find out what they angels were reporting? I see nothing clear and unambiguous supporting your position here. What about my other questions?

Patrissimo

[bibleman]

Leon Bible wrote:

"The angels reported to God the information they had gained from walking to and fro in the earth.
It is a fact of Scripture.
I really don't have a problem with believing the Scripture as it is."

I understand your position but I did ask where does the text actually say that God needed to find out what they angels were reporting? I see nothing clear and unambiguous supporting your position here. What about my other questions?

Patrissimo

I don't think the text said God NEEDED here... But the fact is they told Him the info. What purpose would a "stage performance" by God and angels (acting like they are sharing information) serve?

And to show that God has ways of obtaining information notice Zec 6:8.

Zechariah 6:8 Then he cried to me, “Behold, those who go toward the north country have set my Spirit at rest in the north country.” (ESV)

HOW is it that God's Spirit was "quieted" or set at "rest" unless if was based on the knowledge He received from the angels?