Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ KEEP REPENTING OR ETERNAL SECURITY?

[bibleman]

OK got a question for you my friend.

You were asked "Hilltop, are you saying you never sin?????? That it's possible for a true Christian not to sin????? Come on man!"
You said: "That is indeed what I'm saying."
Now I am not advocating sin and I believe that Christians can certainly walk free from Death Penalty sins if they choose to do so.
BUT If Christians never sin then what is the purpose of this passage?

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Please allow me to para-phrase the verses...
"I wrote this so you don't commit sin.
If any man not yet in Christ sins, we have an Advocate they can rely on.
For as He paid for our sins, He can pay for the sinner's too.

The next two verses identify who "knows Christ-God",..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

If that hasn't answered your question, let me know.

Well not really an answer... because your paraphrase changes the meaning of the passage to something passage does not say.

So could you explain the verse WITHOUT the paraphrase?

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Notice the propitiation for OUR sins includes John (a Christian) and the whole world (non-Christians).

[Hill Top]

OK got a question for you my friend.

You were asked "Hilltop, are you saying you never sin?????? That it's possible for a true Christian not to sin????? Come on man!"
You said: "That is indeed what I'm saying."
Now I am not advocating sin and I believe that Christians can certainly walk free from Death Penalty sins if they choose to do so.
BUT If Christians never sin then what is the purpose of this passage?

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Please allow me to para-phrase the verses...
"I wrote this so you don't commit sin.
If any man not yet in Christ sins, we have an Advocate they can rely on.
For as He paid for our sins, He can pay for the sinner's too.
The next two verses identify who "knows Christ-God",..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
If that hasn't answered your question, let me know.

Well not really an answer... because your paraphrase changes the meaning of the passage to something passage does not say.
So could you explain the verse WITHOUT the paraphrase?

Hmmm.
I thought my para-phrase did explain it, but...
John is pointing out that there is an Advocate for those who commit sin.
You know, those walking in darkness.
Jesus was our Advocate, allowing us to start walking in the light-God and all those wishing to walk in the light can use the same Advocate we once used.
The "any man" opens Christ's advocacy to the world.

I hope that explains it better.

[luchnia]

OK got a question for you my friend.

You were asked "Hilltop, are you saying you never sin?????? That it's possible for a true Christian not to sin????? Come on man!"
You said: "That is indeed what I'm saying."
Now I am not advocating sin and I believe that Christians can certainly walk free from Death Penalty sins if they choose to do so.
BUT If Christians never sin then what is the purpose of this passage?

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Please allow me to para-phrase the verses...
"I wrote this so you don't commit sin.
If any man not yet in Christ sins, we have an Advocate they can rely on.
For as He paid for our sins, He can pay for the sinner's too.
The next two verses identify who "knows Christ-God",..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
If that hasn't answered your question, let me know.

Well not really an answer... because your paraphrase changes the meaning of the passage to something passage does not say.
So could you explain the verse WITHOUT the paraphrase?

Hmmm.
I thought my para-phrase did explain it, but...
John is pointing out that there is an Advocate for those who commit sin.
You know, those walking in darkness.
Jesus was our Advocate, allowing us to start walking in the light-God and all those wishing to walk in the light can use the same Advocate we once used.
The "any man" opens Christ's advocacy to the world.

I hope that explains it better.

John is also pointing out to the saints and includes himself, just as Paul often did that a saint can fall to sin and become a servant of satan (Rom 6). There are other verses such as 6-11 and many others and the book as a whole to pull the context together of what John was writing about. The book is a declaration to the saints to keep themselves in Christ and not fall away to sin, yet also lets them know there is a way out if they do.

John, as did Paul, Jesus, and many others, warned many times to beware of the things that could pull them down to fall and serve satan. Much of the new testament is dedicated to this fact.

[Hill Top]

John is also pointing out to the saints and includes himself, just as Paul often did that a saint can fall to sin and become a servant of satan (Rom 6). There are other verses such as 6-11 and many others and the book as a whole to pull the context together of what John was writing about. The book is a declaration to the saints to keep themselves in Christ and not fall away to sin, yet also lets them know there is a way out if they do.

If they are "saints", reborn of God's seed, they won't fall away. They will adhere to every exhortation and admonition and warning of God's ministers.
If they "fall away" it is only from their perception of being a saint.
Those with God''s seed in them cannot commit sin. (1 John 3:9)

John, as did Paul, Jesus, and many others, warned many times to beware of the things that could pull them down to fall and serve satan. Much of the new testament is dedicated to this fact.

Indeed it is.
Sin would prove one was not reborn of God.
The Advocate will, however, be their conduit to a real life in Christ when, if, they really do turn from sin.

[luchnia]

John is also pointing out to the saints and includes himself, just as Paul often did that a saint can fall to sin and become a servant of satan (Rom 6). There are other verses such as 6-11 and many others and the book as a whole to pull the context together of what John was writing about. The book is a declaration to the saints to keep themselves in Christ and not fall away to sin, yet also lets them know there is a way out if they do.

If they are "saints", reborn of God's seed, they won't fall away. They will adhere to every exhortation and admonition and warning of God's ministers.
If they "fall away" it is only from their perception of being a saint.
Those with God''s seed in them cannot commit sin. (1 John 3:9)

John, as did Paul, Jesus, and many others, warned many times to beware of the things that could pull them down to fall and serve satan. Much of the new testament is dedicated to this fact.

Indeed it is.
Sin would prove one was not reborn of God.
The Advocate will, however, be their conduit to a real life in Christ when, if, they really do turn from sin.

Agreed, one is sin is not born of God. It is just as important that sin would not prove that one had not been previously born of God as the scriptures show, or Paul and John were incorrect in their many statements pertaining to the saints of God? How does one reconcile the other scriptures? Simply ignore them?

[branham1965]

Peter was an apostle of Jesus Christ and BACKSLID!!!

[Hill Top]

Indeed it is.
Sin would prove one was not reborn of God.
The Advocate will, however, be their conduit to a real life in Christ when, if, they really do turn from sin.

Agreed, one is sin is not born of God.
It is just as important that sin would not prove that one had not been previously born of God...

Your double negative has thrown me for a loop.!?
Care to edit that?
I think you could remove the first "not" to make sense there.

... as the scriptures show, or Paul and John were incorrect in their many statements pertaining to the saints of God? How does one reconcile the other scriptures? Simply ignore them?

I'll wait till you clean up the above before responding.

[Hill Top]

Indeed it is.
Sin would prove one was not reborn of God.
The Advocate will, however, be their conduit to a real life in Christ when, if, they really do turn from sin.

Agreed, one is sin is not born of God.
It is just as important that sin would not prove that one had not been previously born of God...

Your double negative has thrown me for a loop.!?
Care to edit that?
I think you could remove the first "not" to make sense there.

... as the scriptures show, or Paul and John were incorrect in their many statements pertaining to the saints of God? How does one reconcile the other scriptures? Simply ignore them?

I'll wait till you clean up the above before responding.

[luchnia]

Indeed it is.
Sin would prove one was not reborn of God.
The Advocate will, however, be their conduit to a real life in Christ when, if, they really do turn from sin.

Agreed, one is sin is not born of God.
It is just as important that sin would not prove that one had not been previously born of God...

Your double negative has thrown me for a loop.!?
Care to edit that?
I think you could remove the first "not" to make sense there.

... as the scriptures show, or Paul and John were incorrect in their many statements pertaining to the saints of God? How does one reconcile the other scriptures? Simply ignore them?

I'll wait till you clean up the above before responding.

Let me rephrase it in easier terms. In your understanding one in sin proves one was not reborn of God and could have never been born of God. The first part aligns with scripture, the second part does not. The part your understanding does not allow for is the scriptural context that shows that one in sin could also prove that they may have been previously born of God as scripture shows even in the book the verse in question comes from.

If a doctrine is built upon a verse such as this out of context it is like a scale that cannot balance correctly and after faith is built in the verse alone the ability to rationally allow the context can become lost.

[Hill Top]

Let me rephrase it in easier terms.
In your understanding one in sin proves one was not reborn of God and could have never been born of God.

The "fruit" of the seed determines whose seed we are born of...right?

The first part aligns with scripture, the second part does not.
The part your understanding does not allow for is the scriptural context that shows that one in sin could also prove that they may have been previously born of God as scripture shows even in the book the verse in question comes from.

How so?
Better supply the scripture that says the seed of God can bear devilish fruit.
Or are you supposing that just because a devil does good things for a year, or five, he was once bearing Godly seed and fruit?
Don't be fooled by the wiles of the devil.
It is written..."For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." (2 Cor 11:13-15)
It won't be till the final judgement that the REAL spirit of a man will be revealed.

If a doctrine is built upon a verse such as this out of context it is like a scale that cannot balance correctly and after faith is built in the verse alone the ability to rationally allow the context can become lost.

God's seed cannot bring forth sin.
Build your context around that, and not around what you may have witnessed from Gandhi or some other wicked man who does "supposed" good for a time while harboring the heart of the devil.