Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ HE WHO HINDERS

[titus213]

Verse 7 says the Antichrist is already at work. He who restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.

No, actually, it does not. It says "the mystery of lawlessness is already at work". The Antichrist may not even be alive (either when Paul wrote or in our own time); he won't be known until he is revealed. The Antichrist won't be revealed until He who hinders is removed.

You claim "taken out of the way" is common Greek, Please provide evidence of this but also know that isn't what is written in the Greek that is how it was translated. Perhaps the translators used common Old English terminology here. You think?

That is precisely what the Greek means; it is true that there have been those who are unfamiliar with the Greek idioms, and "translate" (if you can call it that) by just trying to copy over the words one-by-one, with the result that they get something like "until he becomes out of the midst". But see Alford's Greek New Testament w/Notes and F F Bruce commentary on 2 Thessalonians in the Word Biblical Commentary, who explain the regular usage of the phrase in Greek. Most Bible translations, in fact, give the correct meaning.

[Justaned]

Ed said,
Be that as it may there is absolutely nothing here to support the theory of a rapture. An event that is never mentioned in scripture and something only suggested by man. Yet you all claim Sola scriptura or scripture only.


Ed, let his statement of yours forever be a monument to your understanding of the Bible. Their is no debate among prophesy students of IF there is a rapture, the only question is WHEN the rapture occurs, I Thes. 4:16.

Dolph
Let this statement of yours forever be a monument of your lack ofunderstanding of what is actually being discussed among real students of prophesy.

The "rapture" of the church has been a hotly contested discussion since the concept of the Rapture was conceived. Out of the four most popular view of Eschatology only the dispensational/futuristic school of thought holds to the concept of a Rapture. And within that school there are the Pre trib, mid trib,pre wrath and post trib supportters. Incidentally for all intent and purpose the post trib group really isn't a separate event between the second coming and the rapture.

What you don't realize is that most eschatology novels you obviously tend to read is written by those that hold to a Rapture. It sells! But if you ever get into serious study of eschatology and read any scholarily works you will see the Rapture is minority belief although it probably has a majority of the casual followers because of the work of Scofield, Warfield, Darby and a few others.

In fact the men that most support the position of the Rapture and were responsible for being in the church also think Pentecostalism is a of Satan. Think about that.

[Justaned]

Ed wrote,
Verse seven you say the one that restrains is the Holy Spirit through the church.
What is the church restraining.
60 million abortions attest it isn’t restraining the murder of innocence.
The portrayal of homosexual life style on TV as being normal says the church isn’t restraining abhorrent behavior.
The portrayal of elicit sex and nudity on TV in movies and in literature says the church isn’t restraining carnal behavior.
The fact that divorce, child perversion, drug usage and abnormal sex exists in the church in equal percentage to the world says the church isn’t restraining this.
What is being restrained, murder? Its on the rise. Teen pregnancy? It is on the rise. Drug use? It is on the rise. Name one thing the church is restraining today. Name one thing you personally as the member of the body of Christ and part of the church restrained.

The God-filled Church has been restraining evil with the help of billions of angels since the days of the Mongols, Huns and the Murderous Muslims. It's called Western Civilization which has taken a turn for the worse since the antichrists got hold of our media. Wait 'til the Church is raptured, then you'll appreciate what the Church has done. Ed, only you would put down the Church of Jesus Christ this way! Part of the reason for the coming tribulation is because the Church has become lukewarm. How many healings took place in your A.G. church last Sunday. How many souls did you win last week??

I did not put down the church of Jesus Christ, I lamented at its weakened condition. Where men deep in sin are filling the pulpit and people rave about their excellent message.

If the church ever repents stops trying to be part of the world then it will turn around and become an effective deterrent of sin. But in most cases sin dwells deeply in the church.

The church to you is lukewarn but the underground churches in other countries are red hot.

You also assign the work of Rome legions, Catholics that you call deceived, and adventurers to the work of the church. Rome legions overcame most of the huns and such long before the church came to Rome. Then the Catholic church under the threat of eternal damnation controlled Europe, later bored mercenaries of Europe under the promise of riches from Rome fought in the crusades. Where there committed men? Yes but most of the army was made up or mercenaries and were paid from the spoils of war or pockets of Rome.

Oh now we are using healings as a sign of authenticity? Perhaps that is why the church is where it is at. Mormons who believe Jesus is the spirit brother of Satan have healing services where many are healed does that make them authentic?

The question should be was the unvarnished, untarnished, unartificially enhanced word of God spoken, did people come to worship in spirit and in truth and was God honored and given ALL the glory or did he have to share jsut a little.

Do a survey ask the people what was preached last Sunday. Ask them why they attend your church. Is it because of the preaching, music, programs, building, activities, things for their kids, because of the preacher or was it because they came to stand before a living God and give him the worship due him and to be equipped to do the work of the Lord.

[Justaned]

Duplicate entry of which I have no idea how it got here

[macca]

Have you got Billy's keyboard Ed?

[Justaned]

Have you got Billy's keyboard Ed?

I must.
I went to edit some misspelled words in a previous post and for some reason this one was created, a duplicate of the one I was trying to edit.
Who know what mysterious things take place in the world of Bibleman.

[titus213]

As best as I can determine from my Greek study tools, the Greek word for "church" is feminine, too. Not masculine.

Yes, but the concept of gender when it comes to parts of speech in Greek doesn't necessarily refer to male and female; gender is a grammatical feature of the language, that's all. For instance, the Greek word for "sword" is feminine but certainly doesn't imply "female". In the same way, the Greek word for "assembly" (or "church"), though a feminine noun, does not imply "female".

[Justaned]

As best as I can determine from my Greek study tools, the Greek word for "church" is feminine, too. Not masculine.

Yes, but the concept of gender when it comes to parts of speech in Greek doesn't necessarily refer to male and female; gender is a grammatical feature of the language, that's all. For instance, the Greek word for "sword" is feminine but certainly doesn't imply "female". In the same way, the Greek word for "assembly" (or "church"), though a feminine noun, does not imply "female".

Fatherfisher
What you are saying is correct and no one was suggesting the church is feminine in nature or acts girly. The point is the church when refered to outside of being directly named is always in the feminine.
The church is called she, when compared usually as a wife, etc.

What I'm saying is if Paul is referring to the church in the 2 Thes 2:7 as "He" it is the only place I know of in scripture that the Holy Ghost inspired a writer to do so. Since the "He" isn't identified I see no logical reason to go against the established convention of using the feminine gender when talking about the church and assume the "He" is the church.

[Justaned]

Nothing can be any clearer in scripture than that the Church is the body of Christ and that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are masculine. Therefore the Church is masculine. If you are a man, isn't your body a man's body?

Jesus said to the Father, "as thou, Father, art in me and I in thee, that they also may be ONE IN US", John 17:31.

For as we have many members in one body... so we being many are ONE BODY IN CHRIST, Rom. 12:4-5.

But he who is joined unto the Lord is ONE SPIRIT, I Cor. 6:17.

For as the BODY IS ONE and hath many members and all the members of that ONE BODY, being many, are ONE BODY; so also is Christ. For by ONE SPIRIT are we all baptized into ONE BODY, I Cor. 12:12,13.

Now ye are the BODY OF CHRIST, v.27.

We are members of HIS BODY, of His flesh, and of His bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother and shall be joined unto his wife and they two shall BECOME ONE flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the Church, Eph. 5:30-32.

Therefore the "he" in 2 Thes. 2:7 can be and is the Church that is hindering the Mystery of Iniquity.

You totally disregard the fact that everywhere else in scripture where the church is referred to as a pronoun the pronoun has been feminine.

Why change that now in 2 thes 2:7?

[bibleman]

Nothing can be any clearer in scripture than that the Church is the body of Christ and that the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are masculine. Therefore the Church is masculine. If you are a man, isn't your body a man's body?

Jesus said to the Father, "as thou, Father, art in me and I in thee, that they also may be ONE IN US", John 17:31.

For as we have many members in one body... so we being many are ONE BODY IN CHRIST, Rom. 12:4-5.

But he who is joined unto the Lord is ONE SPIRIT, I Cor. 6:17.

For as the BODY IS ONE and hath many members and all the members of that ONE BODY, being many, are ONE BODY; so also is Christ. For by ONE SPIRIT are we all baptized into ONE BODY, I Cor. 12:12,13.

Now ye are the BODY OF CHRIST, v.27.

We are members of HIS BODY, of His flesh, and of His bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother and shall be joined unto his wife and they two shall BECOME ONE flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the Church, Eph. 5:30-32.

Therefore the "he" in 2 Thes. 2:7 can be and is the Church that is hindering the Mystery of Iniquity.

Any honest-hearted person would have to agree!