Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Finis Dake on Positive Confession

[brodave]

So Ed do you believe Jesus needed to be born again. If Jesus had a sinful nature wouldn't He need to be born again. You are the first AG preacher I ever believed Jesus had a sinful nature.

[Justaned]

Where in scripture does it say Jesus did not have a sin nature a propensity for sin. It says we was man and like man in all ways.

Romans 7:18-25 (NKJV)
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice.
20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
21 I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good.
22 For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man.
23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.
24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death?
25 I thank God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

Ed please don't get mad,I was wondering when you were going to use romans chapter 7 because I knew you were going to. This is a pictures of Paul trying to keep the law as a Pharisee and found that he was unable to, this is not a picture of a redeemed person. Ed you sure love your defeatist form of Christianity. Where is there any victory, I mean no authority over the devil, no prayers are answered or at least most can't be. And we still have a sin nature that we can't control in Christ. Man I had this in the world when I was an unbeliever sheesh. In my opinion You are pitching such a warped version of Christianity. You have even tried to get me to doubt even What Jesus said, and the promises that we have in the Bible. Here is a some up what I have seen from you in a couple of threads.
No authority
no healing
no prosperity
no needs and wants met
legalism
Controlled by the sin nature.
Jesus did not actually mean what he says.
I may be wrong about this but in a way you make God to be some distant cold stepfather who does not help his children. Almost like in greek mythology fashion your god sounds more like Zeus than the God that is portrayed in the bible, I am sorry, I do see it that way. You see in greek mythology the gods were cold tyrannical and did not really help their worshipers. And they sure did not promise anything to any Body. Allow me to explain this further. You are given clear cut and concise scripture about what God has promised concerning us in his written word and you dismiss it and tempt people to doubt it. Why? Perhaps in you heresy hunter mentality you have overlooked what the bible really says?

Yes yes I heard all that nonsense before Rocky. How come when I say something is metaphor in scripture everyone tells oh no that is to be taken literally but when I take something literally in scripture the same people come back and say oh you can't that literally that is a metaphor? Why is that?

Paul was saying the same all of us do if we are honest. We sin not intentionally but we sin and the reason we sin is we have a propensity for sin that has been in us from birth. We must fight daily not to sin. What do we fight against? Our sin nature. As paul said there are times he lets his guard down and his body has it way, blurting out in anger as someone. Paul said he never intended to do that but his old man is sin nature escaped and had his way to Paul regret.

Do you not sin? Do you not regret that sin? Or are you one of these that says they never sin?

Ed you did not really read what I wrote did you?

I read it and it was clear to me you have no idea what I'm saying. I don't know exactly why but I suspect you have various buzz words that when you hear them you think one way and never consider another. I have tried over and over to show you through scripture, through logic and through your own life experience that Jesus was teaching us not to dwell on Satan, not trying to be acceptable to God in ourselves but only through Jesus can we come into relationship with God. Once we are in relationship nothing can remove us from the hand of Jesus. However we can remove ourselves by willfully sinning. When we sin it is not Satan that is doing it but us our propensity for sin over rides our spirit man and our flesh and it's lusts take us into the sin. Satan can only tempt us, to try to entice us, but it is us no one else that must give into that temptation.

By saying Jesus had a sin nature does not mean nor does it suggest Jesus sinned it only means that He could be tempted just as we are. Somehow you get tangled up on the word I'm using and shut off. I'm sorry that I can't seem to express myself in a way you will accept but I have tried everything I know.

[Justaned]

So Ed do you believe Jesus needed to be born again. If Jesus had a sinful nature wouldn't He need to be born again. You are the first AG preacher I ever believed Jesus had a sinful nature.

Okay I give up I'm using a term that apparently warps everyone's thinking. What I trying to say is that even though Jesus never sinned he still had the what we as humans have that allowed him to be tempted. He could be tempted to meet the needs of the flesh, to feed the desires of the eyes and to feed pride in Himself. I call this our sin nature, the part of every human that allows them to be tempted.
Even most pious and truly saved Christians can be tempted, however if they are truly in Christ they don't give into the temptations and commit actual sin.

Now unless you are saying that save Christians never experience temptation I don't understand why this is so hard to figure out.
Please someone instead of telling me how wrong I am, tell me, are you susceptible to temptation or not? What do you call that part of you that is enticed by that temptation? I not saying you commit sin I'm simply saying you can be tempted.

[bibleman]

So Ed do you believe Jesus needed to be born again. If Jesus had a sinful nature wouldn't He need to be born again. You are the first AG preacher I ever believed Jesus had a sinful nature.

Okay I give up I'm using a term that apparently warps everyone's thinking. What I trying to say is that even though Jesus never sinned he still had the what we as humans have that allowed him to be tempted. He could be tempted to meet the needs of the flesh, to feed the desires of the eyes and to feed pride in Himself. I call this our sin nature, the part of every human that allows them to be tempted.
Even most pious and truly saved Christians can be tempted, however if they are truly in Christ they don't give into the temptations and commit actual sin.

Now unless you are saying that save Christians never experience temptation I don't understand why this is so hard to figure out.
Please someone instead of telling me how wrong I am, tell me, are you susceptible to temptation or not? What do you call that part of you that is enticed by that temptation? I not saying you commit sin I'm simply saying you can be tempted.

Hi ed,

I am with brodave on this one.

You are the FIRST AG preacher I have ever heard who taught that Jesus had a sin nature!

Is that part of your Presbyterian or Catholic beliefs?

[Justaned]

So Ed do you believe Jesus needed to be born again. If Jesus had a sinful nature wouldn't He need to be born again. You are the first AG preacher I ever believed Jesus had a sinful nature.

Okay I give up I'm using a term that apparently warps everyone's thinking. What I trying to say is that even though Jesus never sinned he still had the what we as humans have that allowed him to be tempted. He could be tempted to meet the needs of the flesh, to feed the desires of the eyes and to feed pride in Himself. I call this our sin nature, the part of every human that allows them to be tempted.
Even most pious and truly saved Christians can be tempted, however if they are truly in Christ they don't give into the temptations and commit actual sin.

Now unless you are saying that save Christians never experience temptation I don't understand why this is so hard to figure out.
Please someone instead of telling me how wrong I am, tell me, are you susceptible to temptation or not? What do you call that part of you that is enticed by that temptation? I not saying you commit sin I'm simply saying you can be tempted.

Hi ed,

I am with brodave on this one.

You are the FIRST AG preacher I have ever heard who taught that Jesus had a sin nature!

Is that part of your Presbyterian or Catholic beliefs?

Bibleman
One can always rest assured that you will be forthcoming with a constructive answer. I asked why what I was saying was causing confusion and your brilliant answer is nothing more than personal attack.
Here I will give you this quote to mull over.

"Marx and Engels never tried to refute their opponents with argument. They insulted, ridiculed, derided, slandered, and traduced them, and in the use of these methods their followers are not less expert. Their polemic is directed never against the argument of the opponent, but always against his person."

This quote fits you to a tee.

[Justaned]

Here is an excellent explanation on sin nature. It is long I know but well worth the read.

There is no promise in the Scripture that a Christian, in this life, will ever reach the place where he will no longer sin: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 Jn. 1:8). There are those who teach that it is possible to have an experience of sanctification, which they call a second work of grace. It is described in the following quotation:

The heart is purified, cleansed and made holy. It is purged of that inbred sin nature; and from that time on, temptation comes only from without, not from within a heart that is sanctified. No one ever becomes so completely perfected that he is not subject to temptation. But one has greater and more glorious victory after he is sanctified because he no longer has to contend with the carnal nature. It has been removed.

How wonderful that would be if it were true!

The carnal nature, the flesh, never becomes sanctified: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (Jn. 3:6). God never builds on the old, fleshly, sinful nature. He always begins with something new. That is why Jesus said, "Ye must be born again" (Jn. 3:7). The flesh never becomes spiritual. Do not expect it to do so. The flesh in the most saintly person is the same flesh that is in the worst of sinners.
Paul likens the two sons of Abraham to the two natures of the believer: the fleshly nature and the new spiritual nature that he receives in the new birth. "For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.... But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now" (Gal. 4:22-23, 29). The flesh always opposes the Spirit. What are we to do? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman" (v. 30). Ishmael could not be corrected. He had to be cast out (Gen. 21:10). This is the way to deal with the flesh. Thus Paul admonishes, "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11). The flesh cannot be overcome by eradication. It will always be there as long as we are in this earthly body, neither can it be overcome by suppression. Some have earnestly tried to gain victory by the power of their will and the energy of the flesh. The victory is seen to be only through identification with Christ. Paul said, "I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).
Guy P. Duffield and Nathaniel M. Van Cleave, Foundations of Pentecostal Theology, (Los Angeles, CA: Foursquare Media, 2008), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 245-246.

[bibleman]

Here is an excellent explanation on sin nature. It is long I know but well worth the read.

There is no promise in the Scripture that a Christian, in this life, will ever reach the place where he will no longer sin: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 Jn. 1:8). There are those who teach that it is possible to have an experience of sanctification, which they call a second work of grace. It is described in the following quotation:

The heart is purified, cleansed and made holy. It is purged of that inbred sin nature; and from that time on, temptation comes only from without, not from within a heart that is sanctified. No one ever becomes so completely perfected that he is not subject to temptation. But one has greater and more glorious victory after he is sanctified because he no longer has to contend with the carnal nature. It has been removed.

How wonderful that would be if it were true!

The carnal nature, the flesh, never becomes sanctified: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (Jn. 3:6). God never builds on the old, fleshly, sinful nature. He always begins with something new. That is why Jesus said, "Ye must be born again" (Jn. 3:7). The flesh never becomes spiritual. Do not expect it to do so. The flesh in the most saintly person is the same flesh that is in the worst of sinners.
Paul likens the two sons of Abraham to the two natures of the believer: the fleshly nature and the new spiritual nature that he receives in the new birth. "For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.... But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now" (Gal. 4:22-23, 29). The flesh always opposes the Spirit. What are we to do? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman" (v. 30). Ishmael could not be corrected. He had to be cast out (Gen. 21:10). This is the way to deal with the flesh. Thus Paul admonishes, "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11). The flesh cannot be overcome by eradication. It will always be there as long as we are in this earthly body, neither can it be overcome by suppression. Some have earnestly tried to gain victory by the power of their will and the energy of the flesh. The victory is seen to be only through identification with Christ. Paul said, "I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).
Guy P. Duffield and Nathaniel M. Van Cleave, Foundations of Pentecostal Theology, (Los Angeles, CA: Foursquare Media, 2008), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 245-246.

Hi Ed,

Above you quoted: "This is the way to deal with the flesh. Thus Paul admonishes, "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11)."

How would this work? I mean if we reckon ourselves alive unto God through Jesus Christ... and according to you Jesus also has a sin nature... then how do we overcome sin, since the remedy Jesus Christ also has a sin nature?

Could you help me on this?

[bibleman]

So Ed do you believe Jesus needed to be born again. If Jesus had a sinful nature wouldn't He need to be born again. You are the first AG preacher I ever believed Jesus had a sinful nature.

Okay I give up I'm using a term that apparently warps everyone's thinking. What I trying to say is that even though Jesus never sinned he still had the what we as humans have that allowed him to be tempted. He could be tempted to meet the needs of the flesh, to feed the desires of the eyes and to feed pride in Himself. I call this our sin nature, the part of every human that allows them to be tempted.
Even most pious and truly saved Christians can be tempted, however if they are truly in Christ they don't give into the temptations and commit actual sin.

Now unless you are saying that save Christians never experience temptation I don't understand why this is so hard to figure out.
Please someone instead of telling me how wrong I am, tell me, are you susceptible to temptation or not? What do you call that part of you that is enticed by that temptation? I not saying you commit sin I'm simply saying you can be tempted.

Hi ed,

I am with brodave on this one.

You are the FIRST AG preacher I have ever heard who taught that Jesus had a sin nature!

Is that part of your Presbyterian or Catholic beliefs?

Bibleman
One can always rest assured that you will be forthcoming with a constructive answer. I asked why what I was saying was causing confusion and your brilliant answer is nothing more than personal attack.
Here I will give you this quote to mull over.

"Marx and Engels never tried to refute their opponents with argument. They insulted, ridiculed, derided, slandered, and traduced them, and in the use of these methods their followers are not less expert. Their polemic is directed never against the argument of the opponent, but always against his person."

This quote fits you to a tee.

Hi Ed,

So are you saying it is an insult to ask if someone gets their belief from Catholics or Presbyterians?

How do you get that?

[Rocky]

Okay I give up I'm using a term that apparently warps everyone's thinking

No this unbiblical theology that you are trying to pitch one here is what is warping every ones thinking
Dake taught that the.... oh why do I even bother lol

[Justaned]

Here is an excellent explanation on sin nature. It is long I know but well worth the read.

There is no promise in the Scripture that a Christian, in this life, will ever reach the place where he will no longer sin: "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 Jn. 1:8). There are those who teach that it is possible to have an experience of sanctification, which they call a second work of grace. It is described in the following quotation:

The heart is purified, cleansed and made holy. It is purged of that inbred sin nature; and from that time on, temptation comes only from without, not from within a heart that is sanctified. No one ever becomes so completely perfected that he is not subject to temptation. But one has greater and more glorious victory after he is sanctified because he no longer has to contend with the carnal nature. It has been removed.

How wonderful that would be if it were true!

The carnal nature, the flesh, never becomes sanctified: "That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit" (Jn. 3:6). God never builds on the old, fleshly, sinful nature. He always begins with something new. That is why Jesus said, "Ye must be born again" (Jn. 3:7). The flesh never becomes spiritual. Do not expect it to do so. The flesh in the most saintly person is the same flesh that is in the worst of sinners.
Paul likens the two sons of Abraham to the two natures of the believer: the fleshly nature and the new spiritual nature that he receives in the new birth. "For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.... But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now" (Gal. 4:22-23, 29). The flesh always opposes the Spirit. What are we to do? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman" (v. 30). Ishmael could not be corrected. He had to be cast out (Gen. 21:10). This is the way to deal with the flesh. Thus Paul admonishes, "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11). The flesh cannot be overcome by eradication. It will always be there as long as we are in this earthly body, neither can it be overcome by suppression. Some have earnestly tried to gain victory by the power of their will and the energy of the flesh. The victory is seen to be only through identification with Christ. Paul said, "I am crucified with Christ; nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me" (Gal. 2:20).
Guy P. Duffield and Nathaniel M. Van Cleave, Foundations of Pentecostal Theology, (Los Angeles, CA: Foursquare Media, 2008), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 245-246.

Hi Ed,

Above you quoted: "This is the way to deal with the flesh. Thus Paul admonishes, "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord" (Rom. 6:11)."

How would this work? I mean if we reckon ourselves alive unto God through Jesus Christ... and according to you Jesus also has a sin nature... then how do we overcome sin, since the remedy Jesus Christ also has a sin nature?

Could you help me on this?

Jesus Christ before his death on the cross has mortal body just as man. Man's flesh has a propensity for sin. Jesus flesh could be tempted thus it to had a propensity for sin. After Jesus death and resurrection He was raised in His immortal body, that flesh is not sin taint it has no propensity for sin thus Jesus now can not be tempted as man is able.

Paul is saying crucify the flesh and give life to the spirit man that is not tainted by sin, has not propensity for sin.

Is this all that difficult for you to figure out?

You still haven't answered what do you call part of man that can be tempte? Did Jesus have this or not? Was His temptation real in the fact he could be tempted to sin or not?