Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Does everything happen for a reason?

[Justaned]

God Himself says that there is no reason for some things that happen:

• Then the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright, a man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains his integrity, though you incited me against him to ruin him without any reason.” (Job 2:3)

What is so funny is that He said this about JOB'S SITUATION> No divine purpose for it. NO good reason. I believe GOd because He always says the truth. All things do NOT happen for a reason and God is not controlling everything. Question answered discussion over. Advocates of the false doctrine of an all-controlling sovereignty must get before God with weeping and repentance for casting aspersions upon His character.

God isn't saying this all happened with out reason, he is saying the accuser of the saints brought charges against Job that were groundless.
God knew this and to prove it God allowed Satan to test Job to show all the world that it is possible for man to trust in God even though his whole world is going up in flames.

If there wasn't a reason the Book of Job would not be included in the Bible it was put there for a purpose. For our benefit for those of us that choose to understand what the Book of Job is all about.

Ecclesiastes 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

Bibleman
What are you saying? That is just bad luck? Or perhaps you buy into Islamic Karma?

Hi Ed,

Nope not at all. Never memtnioned bad luck or karma.

What I am saying is:

Ecclesiastes 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

If you are takeing the word "chance" to mean a totally random event then you are talking luck or Karma.
What the writter is saying is, from our perspective things do seem to happen by chance. But if that were really true then it would be pointless to pray for God's future protection, it would be meaningless, since things happen by chance. You also evidently believe God had great luck when he asked Abraham to come out of UR and go to a land that I will show you. God had a fifty chance of Abraham making it. He could have been attacked by thieves and killed. If that were true perhaps God called many men from the city and it was only Abraham that made it. Does that sound like something God was involved in or does it sound like really bad theology to make God a being dependant on chance to have things happen as God desires?

Hi Ed,

Where does the writer say in that verse? "from our perspective things do seem to happen by chance.'

I didn't see that, could you point it out to me?

Notice the fact that the writer is writing in the first person.

[Justaned]

God isn't saying this all happened with out reason, he is saying the accuser of the saints brought charges against Job that were groundless.
God knew this and to prove it God allowed Satan to test Job to show all the world that it is possible for man to trust in God even though his whole world is going up in flames.

If there wasn't a reason the Book of Job would not be included in the Bible it was put there for a purpose. For our benefit for those of us that choose to understand what the Book of Job is all about.

Ed, I am beginning to wonder if English is a second language to you since the plain meaning of God's Words in English appears to be foreign to you or if you have some inside track to God's book of reinterpreting His plain statements. God plainly says that what happened was for no good reason but you tell us that there was and tell us what the reason was without citing one passage to prove it.

Either God is giving you some information that He does not care to share with the rest of us mere mortals or you just keep contradicting Him.

Why the desperation Ed? What are you getting out of arguing your asinine fatalistic logic? What is your reward for this?

Victoryword
Why is it instead of rebuting my position you always try to turn the focus on to me. So it is your position that God allows things to happen just because. And it was one of these just because moments that God decided to have recorded and included in as one of the 66 books of the Bible. Does that seem logical to you? Remotely?

God is clearly saying Satan as the accuser of the saints we bringing false accusations against Job. Job was a man none of us knew up to this point.
So here is the situation Satan makes a false accusation and God has two choices tell us that Satan is making a false accusation or proving to everyone Satan is lying by allowing Satan to openly test Job.

If God simply said Job had faith because he loved God and not because of what God gave to Job. Who would believe it except those the really do love God for what they can get out of him? However if he allowed Job to be tested by Satan and if Job remained faithful it would prove that God is worthy to be loved simply because He is God.

So Satan tested Job by taking away the very things that he claimed caused Job to love God, however instead of cursing God and dying Job continued in his love and trust of God. Sure he questioned himself and even God through the journey but his final decision was let God be God and he would serve him.

[bibleman]

Notice the fact that the writer is writing in the first person.

Hi Ed,

So I see that once again you are telling us what you think you want the Word to say rather than what it says.

If not then: "Where does the writer say in Ecclesiastes 9:11 "from our perspective things do seem to happen by chance."'

But of course it does not say what you say it says.

I think that is called eisegesis rather that exegesis - that is readying into the text what your WANT it to say rather that what it says!

[Justaned]

Notice the fact that the writer is writing in the first person.

Hi Ed,

So I see that once again you are telling us what you think you want the Word to say rather than what it says.

If not then: "Where does the writer say in Ecclesiastes 9:11 "from our perspective things do seem to happen by chance."'

But of course it does not say what you say it says.

I think that is called eisegesis rather that exegesis - that is readying into the text what your WANT it to say rather that what it says!

Okay if you believe everything happens by chance why pray? What can God do if it is just chance that guides our path through life. Or do you think by praying it then allows God to become the puppet master and force us through life on the path God chooses? What is it chance or puppet master?

[bibleman]

Notice the fact that the writer is writing in the first person.

Hi Ed,

So I see that once again you are telling us what you think you want the Word to say rather than what it says.

If not then: "Where does the writer say in Ecclesiastes 9:11 "from our perspective things do seem to happen by chance."'

But of course it does not say what you say it says.

I think that is called eisegesis rather that exegesis - that is readying into the text what your WANT it to say rather that what it says!

Okay if you believe everything happens by chance why pray? What can God do if it is just chance that guides our path through life. Or do you think by praying it then allows God to become the puppet master and force us through life on the path God chooses? What is it chance or puppet master?

Hi Ed,

So you have NO answer as to why you try to make Scripture say something that is does not say.

Ed, my friend, this is why you are so mixed up. You read things into Scripture that is NOT there.

[Justaned]

Notice the fact that the writer is writing in the first person.

Hi Ed,

So I see that once again you are telling us what you think you want the Word to say rather than what it says.

If not then: "Where does the writer say in Ecclesiastes 9:11 "from our perspective things do seem to happen by chance."'

But of course it does not say what you say it says.

I think that is called eisegesis rather that exegesis - that is readying into the text what your WANT it to say rather that what it says!

Okay if you believe everything happens by chance why pray? What can God do if it is just chance that guides our path through life. Or do you think by praying it then allows God to become the puppet master and force us through life on the path God chooses? What is it chance or puppet master?

Hi Ed,

So you have NO answer as to why you try to make Scripture say something that is does not say.

Ed, my friend, this is why you are so mixed up. You read things into Scripture that is NOT there.

I'm not trying to make scripture say anything! Scripture speaks for itself.
I'm simply explaining that you fail to consider when God as an author is speaking versus when he is speaking as God.

If God didn't know Abraham's choice then God can't be all knowing. You want to assign to God the same limitations we humans have and that is simply wrong. God is God, God created time, therefore God can control time as proven when he made time stand still. God transcends time, that means that any moment in time God can see the past, the present and the future spread out before God as a huge panorama. How else can God prophesize what will take place in the future. To do it and to do it accurately God either has to be able to see it or have total control over it. You pick which is it?

[bibleman]

Notice the fact that the writer is writing in the first person.

Hi Ed,

So I see that once again you are telling us what you think you want the Word to say rather than what it says.

If not then: "Where does the writer say in Ecclesiastes 9:11 "from our perspective things do seem to happen by chance."'

But of course it does not say what you say it says.

I think that is called eisegesis rather that exegesis - that is readying into the text what your WANT it to say rather that what it says!

Okay if you believe everything happens by chance why pray? What can God do if it is just chance that guides our path through life. Or do you think by praying it then allows God to become the puppet master and force us through life on the path God chooses? What is it chance or puppet master?

Hi Ed,

So you have NO answer as to why you try to make Scripture say something that is does not say.

Ed, my friend, this is why you are so mixed up. You read things into Scripture that is NOT there.

I'm not trying to make scripture say anything! Scripture speaks for itself.
I'm simply explaining that you fail to consider when God as an author is speaking versus when he is speaking as God.

If God didn't know Abraham's choice then God can't be all knowing. You want to assign to God the same limitations we humans have and that is simply wrong. God is God, God created time, therefore God can control time as proven when he made time stand still. God transcends time, that means that any moment in time God can see the past, the present and the future spread out before God as a huge panorama. How else can God prophesize what will take place in the future. To do it and to do it accurately God either has to be able to see it or have total control over it. You pick which is it?

Hi Ed,

No God did NOT know what Abraham would do.

Genesis 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

God had to test him to know what he would do.

That is if you believe the Bible and believe that words mean what words mean.

[Justaned]

Notice the fact that the writer is writing in the first person.

Hi Ed,

So I see that once again you are telling us what you think you want the Word to say rather than what it says.

If not then: "Where does the writer say in Ecclesiastes 9:11 "from our perspective things do seem to happen by chance."'

But of course it does not say what you say it says.

I think that is called eisegesis rather that exegesis - that is readying into the text what your WANT it to say rather that what it says!

Okay if you believe everything happens by chance why pray? What can God do if it is just chance that guides our path through life. Or do you think by praying it then allows God to become the puppet master and force us through life on the path God chooses? What is it chance or puppet master?

Hi Ed,

So you have NO answer as to why you try to make Scripture say something that is does not say.

Ed, my friend, this is why you are so mixed up. You read things into Scripture that is NOT there.

I have an answere but becuase you don't like it you won't accept it.
So what can I say but oh well.

[Justaned]

Notice the fact that the writer is writing in the first person.

Hi Ed,

So I see that once again you are telling us what you think you want the Word to say rather than what it says.

If not then: "Where does the writer say in Ecclesiastes 9:11 "from our perspective things do seem to happen by chance."'

But of course it does not say what you say it says.

I think that is called eisegesis rather that exegesis - that is readying into the text what your WANT it to say rather that what it says!

Okay if you believe everything happens by chance why pray? What can God do if it is just chance that guides our path through life. Or do you think by praying it then allows God to become the puppet master and force us through life on the path God chooses? What is it chance or puppet master?

Hi Ed,

So you have NO answer as to why you try to make Scripture say something that is does not say.

Ed, my friend, this is why you are so mixed up. You read things into Scripture that is NOT there.

I'm not trying to make scripture say anything! Scripture speaks for itself.
I'm simply explaining that you fail to consider when God as an author is speaking versus when he is speaking as God.

If God didn't know Abraham's choice then God can't be all knowing. You want to assign to God the same limitations we humans have and that is simply wrong. God is God, God created time, therefore God can control time as proven when he made time stand still. God transcends time, that means that any moment in time God can see the past, the present and the future spread out before God as a huge panorama. How else can God prophesize what will take place in the future. To do it and to do it accurately God either has to be able to see it or have total control over it. You pick which is it?

Hi Ed,

No God did NOT know what Abraham would do.

Genesis 22:12 And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: for now I know that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me.

God had to test him to know what he would do.

That is if you believe the Bible and believe that words mean what words mean.

Okay
Let us just say you are right (which is not what I'm saying) for the sake of this discussion. What if Abraham had failed. Would that mean God would have had to go back to UR find another guy, lead him to the promise land, make the same covenant with him and hope this guy would attempt to kill Isaac?

Do you really think that?

You take one remote incident and refuse to accept my take on it that God was speaking as an author making the story interesting instead saying of course you will do it I knew it.

But again say you are right (and I not saying that) for the sake of discussion how to you explain God 100% accuracy rate in prophecy? LUCK? Coincidence? God foreknew because he fore saw? Or do you believe God is a the Puppetmaster that pulled the strings that made each prophecy be fullfilled exact as God gave the prophets utterance?

Answer that question.

[cpbeller]

Leon...we have had this discussion before...I am not sure why I have to continue to remind you of this.

1. Ed is always right. Never wrong. Ever.

2. God very rarely means what He says.

3. If the previous two points make no sense, see point #1

Now, Ed. You continue to ask the question "why pray?" I will ask you the same question. Why pray? I mean, if God is going to do whatever God is going to do...then why pray? I mean, afterall, God is so in control that He will just do whatever He wants to, anyways, right? So, why pray?

Ed: "You take one remote incident and refuse to accept my take on it that God was speaking as an author making the story interesting instead saying of course you will do it I knew it."

?????????

Making the "story" interesting???? Really???? REALLY??? So God is taking liberty with the truth, to MAKE THE STORY INTERESTING??? So God is lying, while giving His own testimony of an event...TO MAKE THE STORY INTERESTING????

Ed, you are so far out there...it would be funny if it wasn't so pathetic...and sad...mostly pathetic, but sad too.

..."to make the story interesting". And you call yourself a pastor, a preacher...and you come up with...things...like that.