Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ KEEP REPENTING OR ETERNAL SECURITY?

[Hill Top]

Since you like to carry analogy of grapes, figs, apples, etc., let me ask you some simple questions. Can you plant different seeds in the same soil? Can the same soil bear fruit from those different seeds? How do other seeds get into the soil? Who plants them?

Yes, yes, a farmer plants them.

Spend some serious time studying farming as I mentioned in a previous post and learn about seed and what seed does to the soil it is planted in. Along with studying farming, study the parable of the sower. Without understanding that parable you won't be able to understand how the seed works. The seed of God cannot bear anything dark at all and certainly cannot bear sin that is why 1 Jn is perfect for aiding in understanding this. An apple tree cannot bear olives, but the soil can bear fruit from whatever seed planted there. Many continue to put seed into soil that is tainted and then at some point the seed is lost for a variety of reasons (old wine skins - Matt Chapter 9).

Can the seed of God bear the fruit of the devil?
No.

The apple tree can be scorched and withered, choked, removed, and so on. The same with the seed of God. It can be withered, choked, removed, etc. It is all dependent on the soil! Understanding farming was something that Jesus knew people could understand and He also let the disciples know that if they did not understand the parable of the sower they could not understand the rest.

Next you will be blaming the country of the soil the seed is planted in for it's fruit.
The seed, no matter what kind of soil it is planted in, will only bear after its own sort.

The seed of satan bears the unrighteous actions of the sinner. You may ask yourself how does the seed of satan get into the soil? I gave you James chapter 1 because it was very simple in understanding the process of how sin enters and figured you might get a hold of that, yet the scriptures show us in many places how this happens in the individual and why one must stand against that.

The seed of God within them prevents sin.

The fact taught in God's word that a saint can fall away is a difficult concept for some as in your case, yet it is simple to understand why Jesus taught it and the purpose of why God made it that way. It is all about man loving God. That is another subject though for another thread.

Fig trees (God), cannot bear grapes, (sin).
They may 'seem' to 'fall away', but it is only because they are not of God that they sin.

I see you do not understand what the soil is that houses the seed and how that works, so no wonder you would not understand it as far as the seed of God and how it works. This makes much more sense now why you take the position you do opposing the other scriptures dealing with this.

It doesn't matter.
A seed can only bring forth after its originator.
God brings forth after Himself...not after the devil.
You are asking me to believe that grape vines CAN bear figs.
I can not do that.

[luchnia]

Dake warns that one should not take the symbolism of a parable any further than it's first level of meaning. I think some of us are taking the parable of the sower a bit too far. The big variable in the parable of the sower is the quality of the ground, a persons heart, where the seed lands. The main qualifying condition of the heart/spirit of a man/ground is either lost or born again. But even a heathen can receive the seed/word and be saved so there must be other qualities of a man's heart that determine if the seed grows, takes root and brings forth 30, 60 or 100 fold of fruit of the Spirit. This goes way beyond the parable but God is looking for a humble or teachable spirit, even in an unsaved person.

You touch on some great points and taking the parable to mean something other that what it means brings problems.

The parable indicates an important truth about seed sown in different types of soil. HT contends that grapes cannot bring forth anything other than grapes which is 100% correct. In his posts he list multiple fruits such as grapes, figs, and apples for example which come from certain types of seed. These fruits come from the right combination of soil, water, cultivation, light, etc. He uses them in light of God's seed yet these fruits are not seeds - they are fruit which come from seeds.

With the parable we can see what happens with different types of conditions, cares of the world, thorns, and so on. There are other things that affect seeds that Jesus did not list in the parable such as floods, mingled seed, and so on, but the point of the parable is what is needed and those other things are covered in other parts of God's word. The key here is the soil which is what grows the seed, as you put it the heart/spirit of a man.

The seed burdens the soil. You can have a bag of seed that is never planted in soil and it simply remains a bag of seed. A cucumber seed cannot grow corn, a soybean seed cannot grow tomatoes, so a seed cannot produce another kind. Seeds do nothing of their own and like the word of God it does nothing on its own. It must be planted in soil and all of the other actions must take place in order to produce fruit.

Once one understands how the seed of the devil works it is easy to understand how a saint can fall away to become a sinner and serve satan as is shown in quite a number of places in God's word. One that abides in Christ cannot commit sin (1 Jn chap 3). What happens when a saint falls away? One cannot sin if God's seen remains in them, yet the challenge is what happens to abiding in Christ and to God's seed when one chooses to sin?

What is that process that occurs that causes this choice in an individual? What does a person plant in his or her soil? Examples such as Judas, Ananias, Sapphira, etc., are good illustrations of how the devil's seed come in to a born again child of God and produces the fruit of sin. The seed of the devil must be planted in the soil or it cannot produce the fruit of the devil. Once one is pulled away and tempted and gives birth to sin, the seed of the devil has born fruit and spiritual death has occurred in that individual.

[luchnia]

The Imperative of Love
10 In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother, v. 4-10.

This is the part that false doctrines so often cover up. God desires his creation to love Him from a non-rebellious spirit. Those that understand this will change their whole understanding.

[Hill Top]

Hilltop, with so many physical problems I highly recommend Andrew Wollmack's Ministry that is on Christian TV every weekday here in the States, is broadcast around the world and has had tremendous results. He raised his own son from the dead who was dead five hours in morgue with a tag on his toe.

No thanks.
I have heard him say on TV that "nobody is perfect" in relation to sinning.
That doesn't come from God.

His approach to healing vs. Copeland's is like your teaching on salvation vs. Charles Stanley's. Christians taught by his ministry are raising the dead around the world, dozens and dozens. Life and death are in the power of the tongue, the same power that raised Jesus from the dead resides in every truly born again Christian and there is no question that healing is part of our salvation experience (by His stripes we are healed). With your great self discipline and faith you are a natural to receive what Jesus has already done for you at Calvary. From the abundance of the heart the tongue speaks and the worse thing you can do is confess you are sick or believe you are sick after you accept your healing from Jesus. Just this year God has healed my lungs and a large sun spot on my face. A few weeks ago I sprained my ankle on the tennis court and I believe it is healed!!! Just as you have the right attitude about salvation we must have that same persistence believing we are healed after we pray, standing on the promises of God. Sin gives license to the Devil to kill, steal and destroy but he is a liar and we must resist the Devil and he will flee from us. We have the full armor of God including the shield of faith that repels all the fiery darts of the devil. I made up a stack of 4 X 6 cards loaded with all my favorite scriptures and go through them every so many days to renew my mind. If some asks me how I am I tell them I'm healed, delivered, made whole, in a sound condition and set free. You have to go all out to receive God's blessings just as you have taught salvation!! By the way, Hill Top, you have inspired me to stop ALL sinning and I thank you.

"Confess I am sick" ?...That's a hoot.
I rejoice in any physical problems I have, as they show me how great God is at providing the grace to work through my sickness to do His will.
Instead of singing the praises of men, you should be glorifying God.

[bibleman]

As for: do I get ill...?
Yes, I get sick and stub my toes and have the onset of cataracts and have had insulin dependent diabetes for over thirty some years.
I'm loosing my hair and my ears ring like crickets and I think I am allergic to olive pollen. And I wear glasses.
Can any of these things cause me to commit sin?
No.
Remember, Paul had maladies, and so did Timothy, Epaphroditus, and Erastus,
While sickness CAN show one was taking communion unworthily, (1 Cor 11), it CAN also just be part of this fallen world's impact on the vessel now used by the Holy Ghost to accomplish God's will on earth.
So don't "read too much into it".

If you are offering to heal me, let's start with the cataracts...eye surgery really scares me.

FIRST off let me say - I pray for you, Sickness, disease, pain and suffering are not to be taken lightly.

Let me ask you.

Do you believe that physical healing is a benefit from the Lord?
Psalm 103:1 Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

Do you believe that Jesus HIMSELF too our infirmities and bare our sicknesses?
Matthew 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Do you believe that by his stripes we are healed?
1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Do you believe these things?

[luchnia]

"Confess I am sick" ?...That's a hoot.
I rejoice in any physical problems I have, as they show me how great God is at providing the grace to work through my sickness to do His will.
Instead of singing the praises of men, you should be glorifying God.

I may be misunderstanding your statements. You rejoice in being sick and you glorify God for being sick? Surely I am perceiving that incorrectly.

[luchnia]

So you wish they believe as you do, or would your heart find a place to guide them to believe as the Holy Spirit would have them believe even if it opposes your doctrine on this issue?

Don't you want people to believe as you do?

No, not as I believe. My understanding could be incorrect as my knowledge is limited in many ways. My desire is that people believe as the Holy Spirit would have them believe using the whole of scripture and not building an errant doctrine on an out of context verse. I have been guilty of the later numerous times in my life of studying God's word and that is why I can see it so easily. It has been a difficult thing to change and break free from taking an extreme amount of diligence and constant awareness.

[luchnia]

Isn't it amazing how the same person can be sharp as a razor on one doctrine and as dull as a rock on another? I guess that's why there are so many denominations. Of course healing is part of our salvation and if a preacher is off on one issue does that negate the possibility of him being an expert on another? Not every Christian is a Finis Jennings Dake but some Christians are more knowledgeable in some areas than others. Should we put every Christian down because they're not as knowledgeable as Dake? Is it fair to say that a person doesn't hear from God because he doesn't "get" Christian healing or Bible prophesy? Do all Christians know who the manchild is or the women in Revelation 12? If they don't is it fair to say they don't hear from God? I don't thiiiinnnnkkkk soooooooo. By the way when some one is healed under the Andrew Wommack Ministry they give all the glory to God. To say otherwise is just a sarcastic cheap shot.

Sharp as a razor on one doctrine? What doctrine? It is important to note that having knowledge of certain verses does not mean one has heard from God.

You ask the question should we put every Christian down because their not as knowledgeable as Dake. I think the more important point is that we expose false doctrines, support the knowledge of the truth that sets one free and let scripture show what it shows. We should respect another's right to believe as they wish, it is the doctrine we must look at from God's word.

[Hill Top]

As for: do I get ill...?
Yes, I get sick and stub my toes and have the onset of cataracts and have had insulin dependent diabetes for over thirty some years.
I'm loosing my hair and my ears ring like crickets and I think I am allergic to olive pollen. And I wear glasses.
Can any of these things cause me to commit sin?
No.
Remember, Paul had maladies, and so did Timothy, Epaphroditus, and Erastus,
While sickness CAN show one was taking communion unworthily, (1 Cor 11), it CAN also just be part of this fallen world's impact on the vessel now used by the Holy Ghost to accomplish God's will on earth.
So don't "read too much into it".

If you are offering to heal me, let's start with the cataracts...eye surgery really scares me.

FIRST off let me say - I pray for you, Sickness, disease, pain and suffering are not to be taken lightly.

Thank you.

Let me ask you.
Do you believe that physical healing is a benefit from the Lord?
Psalm 103:1 Bless the LORD, O my soul: and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
2 Bless the LORD, O my soul, and forget not all his benefits:
3 Who forgiveth all thine iniquities; who healeth all thy diseases;

Yes, when it is His will.

Do you believe that Jesus HIMSELF took our infirmities and bare our sicknesses?
Matthew 8:16 When the even was come, they brought unto him many that were possessed with devils: and he cast out the spirits with his word, and healed all that were sick:
17 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by Esaias the prophet, saying, Himself took our infirmities, and bare our sicknesses.

Yes, as He took the infirmities of the folks He healed.

Do you believe that by his stripes we are healed?
1 Peter 2:24 Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed.

Yes, but healed of sin, not illness.

[Hill Top]

"Confess I am sick" ?...That's a hoot.
I rejoice in any physical problems I have, as they show me how great God is at providing the grace to work through my sickness to do His will.
Instead of singing the praises of men, you should be glorifying God.

I may be misunderstanding your statements. You rejoice in being sick and you glorify God for being sick? Surely I am perceiving that incorrectly.

Not at all.
Paul said..."And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." (2 Cor 12:9)
I can identify with that sentiment.