Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ The passage all liberals hate!

[Justaned]

Matthew 10:29-31 (NKJV)
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

Luke 12:6-7 (NKJV)
6 Are not five sparrows sold for two copper coins? And not one of them is forgotten before God.
7 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.


In light of these two verses I find it very hard to believe anyone really believes God didn't know what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah and need to go look.

Or that anything that happens on earth is a surprise to God.

You should talk to Moses - he is the one who wrote the book of Genesis.

Genesis 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

The problem isn't in what is written or even how it was written. The problem lies with the people that try to use this passage to define an attribute of God, something for which this passage was never intended, that is the problem. God through scripture clearly tells us God knows how many hairs on your head but due to incorrect application of this passage people are saying God didn't know about the sin of two cities worth of people. In other words God instantly knew how many hairs were on the head of every person in these two towns, He just didn't know they are were sinning and had to come down in person to see it.

OK then...

Let's ask this question.

What part of this passage do you think is WRONG?

Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

1) God can talk.
2) God has those who report to HIM what is going on on earth. (Angels)
3) God goes from place to place. (from heaven to earth and form place to place on earth)
4) The purpose in God going to Sodom and Gomorrah is to see what is going on.
5) God is checking for HIMSELF against the report that has been given to HIM. (before God destroys the cities HE must see for HIMSELF)
6) God is open to accepting the report or rejecting the report based on what HE HIMSELF sees. (Remember Angels have been known to lie)
7) God will ONLY know when he sees for HIMSELF. (THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT GOD HIMSELF SAID)

Do you believe 1 - 7 above?

I do!

I don't think any part of this passage is wrong. I think what is wrong is when man tries to use a this passage to define God. Something this passage was never intended to do. Your seven points show you are drawing conclusions this passage never intended you to draw. The focus of this passage is not on God's capabilities but it is to show man God's mercy, righteouness, His desire for none to die of sin, His willingness to go to great length rather than condemn man.

[bibleman]

Matthew 10:29-31 (NKJV)
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

Luke 12:6-7 (NKJV)
6 Are not five sparrows sold for two copper coins? And not one of them is forgotten before God.
7 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.


In light of these two verses I find it very hard to believe anyone really believes God didn't know what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah and need to go look.

Or that anything that happens on earth is a surprise to God.

You should talk to Moses - he is the one who wrote the book of Genesis.

Genesis 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

The problem isn't in what is written or even how it was written. The problem lies with the people that try to use this passage to define an attribute of God, something for which this passage was never intended, that is the problem. God through scripture clearly tells us God knows how many hairs on your head but due to incorrect application of this passage people are saying God didn't know about the sin of two cities worth of people. In other words God instantly knew how many hairs were on the head of every person in these two towns, He just didn't know they are were sinning and had to come down in person to see it.

OK then...

Let's ask this question.

What part of this passage do you think is WRONG?

Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

1) God can talk.
2) God has those who report to HIM what is going on on earth. (Angels)
3) God goes from place to place. (from heaven to earth and form place to place on earth)
4) The purpose in God going to Sodom and Gomorrah is to see what is going on.
5) God is checking for HIMSELF against the report that has been given to HIM. (before God destroys the cities HE must see for HIMSELF)
6) God is open to accepting the report or rejecting the report based on what HE HIMSELF sees. (Remember Angels have been known to lie)
7) God will ONLY know when he sees for HIMSELF. (THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT GOD HIMSELF SAID)

Do you believe 1 - 7 above?

I do!

I don't think any part of it is wrong. I think what is wrong is when man tries to use a this passage to define God. Something this passage was never intended to do. The problem is by using this passage to define God, God becomes limited, however by definition God is limitless.

Well how about this.

Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Do you believe that God went down to: "see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it"

[Justaned]

Matthew 10:29-31 (NKJV)
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

Luke 12:6-7 (NKJV)
6 Are not five sparrows sold for two copper coins? And not one of them is forgotten before God.
7 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.


In light of these two verses I find it very hard to believe anyone really believes God didn't know what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah and need to go look.

Or that anything that happens on earth is a surprise to God.

You should talk to Moses - he is the one who wrote the book of Genesis.

Genesis 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

The problem isn't in what is written or even how it was written. The problem lies with the people that try to use this passage to define an attribute of God, something for which this passage was never intended, that is the problem. God through scripture clearly tells us God knows how many hairs on your head but due to incorrect application of this passage people are saying God didn't know about the sin of two cities worth of people. In other words God instantly knew how many hairs were on the head of every person in these two towns, He just didn't know they are were sinning and had to come down in person to see it.

OK then...

Let's ask this question.

What part of this passage do you think is WRONG?

Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

1) God can talk.
2) God has those who report to HIM what is going on on earth. (Angels)
3) God goes from place to place. (from heaven to earth and form place to place on earth)
4) The purpose in God going to Sodom and Gomorrah is to see what is going on.
5) God is checking for HIMSELF against the report that has been given to HIM. (before God destroys the cities HE must see for HIMSELF)
6) God is open to accepting the report or rejecting the report based on what HE HIMSELF sees. (Remember Angels have been known to lie)
7) God will ONLY know when he sees for HIMSELF. (THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT GOD HIMSELF SAID)

Do you believe 1 - 7 above?

I do!

I don't think any part of it is wrong. I think what is wrong is when man tries to use a this passage to define God. Something this passage was never intended to do. The problem is by using this passage to define God, God becomes limited, however by definition God is limitless.

Well how about this.

Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Do you believe that God went down to: "see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it"

Scripture never says. I don't believe if God is capable of knowing the number of hair on everyone's head that He God would have to go down. I think this is explanation of the effort God will make to not have to condemn man to the penalty of sin. We see Him go to even greater lengths when he sent His Son to die for out sin. That is to be the focus of the this passage not God's capabilities.

[bibleman]

Matthew 10:29-31 (NKJV)
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a copper coin? And not one of them falls to the ground apart from your Father's will.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.

Luke 12:6-7 (NKJV)
6 Are not five sparrows sold for two copper coins? And not one of them is forgotten before God.
7 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Do not fear therefore; you are of more value than many sparrows.


In light of these two verses I find it very hard to believe anyone really believes God didn't know what was going on in Sodom and Gomorrah and need to go look.

Or that anything that happens on earth is a surprise to God.

You should talk to Moses - he is the one who wrote the book of Genesis.

Genesis 18:21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

The problem isn't in what is written or even how it was written. The problem lies with the people that try to use this passage to define an attribute of God, something for which this passage was never intended, that is the problem. God through scripture clearly tells us God knows how many hairs on your head but due to incorrect application of this passage people are saying God didn't know about the sin of two cities worth of people. In other words God instantly knew how many hairs were on the head of every person in these two towns, He just didn't know they are were sinning and had to come down in person to see it.

OK then...

Let's ask this question.

What part of this passage do you think is WRONG?

Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

1) God can talk.
2) God has those who report to HIM what is going on on earth. (Angels)
3) God goes from place to place. (from heaven to earth and form place to place on earth)
4) The purpose in God going to Sodom and Gomorrah is to see what is going on.
5) God is checking for HIMSELF against the report that has been given to HIM. (before God destroys the cities HE must see for HIMSELF)
6) God is open to accepting the report or rejecting the report based on what HE HIMSELF sees. (Remember Angels have been known to lie)
7) God will ONLY know when he sees for HIMSELF. (THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT GOD HIMSELF SAID)

Do you believe 1 - 7 above?

I do!

I don't think any part of it is wrong. I think what is wrong is when man tries to use a this passage to define God. Something this passage was never intended to do. The problem is by using this passage to define God, God becomes limited, however by definition God is limitless.

Well how about this.

Genesis 18:20 And the LORD said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous;
21 I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Do you believe that God went down to: "see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it"

Scripture never says. I don't believe if God is capable of knowing the number of hair on everyone's head that He God would have to go down. I think this is explanation of the effort God will make to not have to condemn man to the penalty of sin. We see Him go to even greater lengths when he sent His Son to die for out sin. That is to be the focus of the this passage not God's capabilities.

OK if Scripture never says.

What does this say?

Genesis 18:21 I will go down now, and see

[Justaned]

OK if Scripture never says.

What does this say?

Genesis 18:21 I will go down now, and see

It says what it says. However there is no dialogue to God actually going, or of what he saw.
It reads to me like God already knew what was going on, probably found out when he was counting the hairs on their head.

[bibleman]

OK if Scripture never says.

What does this say?

Genesis 18:21 I will go down now, and see

It says what it says. However there is no dialogue to God actually going, or of what he saw.
It reads to me like God already knew what was going on, probably found out when he was counting the hairs on their head.

So do you think God went like HE said HE was going to do?

[Justaned]

OK if Scripture never says.

What does this say?

Genesis 18:21 I will go down now, and see

It says what it says. However there is no dialogue to God actually going, or of what he saw.
It reads to me like God already knew what was going on, probably found out when he was counting the hairs on their head.

So do you think God went like HE said HE was going to do?

I think God did what God needed to do. If he already knew the number of hairs on each of their heads, if God knew the heart of man long before man even did, I don't think God missed seeing the sin.

[bibleman]

OK if Scripture never says.

What does this say?

Genesis 18:21 I will go down now, and see

It says what it says. However there is no dialogue to God actually going, or of what he saw.
It reads to me like God already knew what was going on, probably found out when he was counting the hairs on their head.

So do you think God went like HE said HE was going to do?

I think God did what God needed to do. If he already knew the number of hairs on each of their heads, if God knew the heart of man long before man even did, I don't think God missed seeing the sin.

That is strange... Ed,

Without reservation I think God did what HE said he would do!

Genesis 18:21 I will go down now, and see

If God said He would go down now and see then I believe God went down and saw!

It is called faith and trust in the integrity of God's Word!

[Ironman]

OK if Scripture never says.

What does this say?

Genesis 18:21 I will go down now, and see

It says what it says. However there is no dialogue to God actually going, or of what he saw.
It reads to me like God already knew what was going on, probably found out when he was counting the hairs on their head.

So do you think God went like HE said HE was going to do?

I think God did what God needed to do. If he already knew the number of hairs on each of their heads, if God knew the heart of man long before man even did, I don't think God missed seeing the sin.

That is strange... Ed,

Without reservation I think God did what HE said he would do!

Genesis 18:21 I will go down now, and see

If God said He would go down now and see then I believe God went down and saw!

It is called faith and trust in the integrity of God's Word!

I agree Bibleman.

Gen 18:21, I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

I will go down now, and see whether they, (the sodomites), have done altogether, to the cry of it, (which was reported to me by my emissaries, and if they have not done so, (either way), I will know!

Just like God never knew how many, if any were not evil??

Gen 18:28, Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.
Gen 18:31, And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.
Gen 18:32, And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

God never knew for sure if Sodom was full of evil doer's, that's why He said He would go down now to see for Himself, just as God never knew if there would be 45, 20, or even 10 righteous people there, until He went down to see for Himself.

Justaned,

My 2 bob's worth! sure God can count hairs on blokes heads and sparrows that fly and or fall, but hairs on blokes heads and sparrows are not free moral agents! God allows free moral agents free reign, until it is reported to Him by His agents that something is not right, ie, there's a problem God, and its sin. The agents, Gods emissaries are not judges of free moral agents, they don't go to God and tell Him of the sins the men, individuals there are committing? They are assigned by God to report to Him any wrong doing, and if and when He hears these reports, and is surprised by the gravity of things like what was happening in Sodom, then God will investigate for Himself, if it is so!

[macca]

No! Ed just wants to confuse the simple statement of the text so as to muddy the waters of the pure revelation of God to man
macca