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bibleman
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Re: Pastor taking anti-depressants

Post by bibleman »

Justaned wrote:Well perhaps not it seems that definitions come and go around here. What is the difference?

Ed

Here is a good article that tells the difference by your hero John MacArthur.
Is there any difference between biblical counseling and Christian psychology or Christian counseling?

MacArthur, John, F., Jr, Wayne A. Mack

At a superficial glance, it would appear that a biblical counselor and a psychotherapist who is a Christian do many of the same things. Both converse with people; both care about people; both get to know people; both are interested in motivation, thoughts, emotions, and behavior; both explore the various pressures in a person’s situation; both give feedback; perhaps both talk about Jesus or a passage of Scripture. So how do they differ? To understand how Christianized psychotherapy differs from biblical counseling it is necessary to look closely at what each practices and teaches. Here are some of the distinctives of each.

Perspective of the Bible and its contribution to counseling. Most Christian psychologists view the Bible as an inspirational resource, but their basic system of counseling, both theory and methods, is transferred unaltered from secular psychology. Most are frankly and self-consciously eclectic, picking and choosing theories and techniques according to personal preference. In contrast, biblical counselors follow the Bible’s view of itself as the source of a comprehensive and detailed approach to understanding and counseling people (2 Tim. 3:15–17; 2 Pet. 1:4).Some Christian psychotherapists use few Scriptures; others use many. But frequency of citation is much less important than the way passages are used—or misused—and in the vast majority of cases the passages cited are completely misused. There is a dearth of contextualized exegesis (a critical interpretation of a text) and an abundance of eisegesis (interpreting a text by reading one’s own ideas into it). Biblical counseling is committed to letting God speak for Himself through His Word, and to handling the Word of Truth rightly (2 Tim. 2:15).

Perspective of God. There are many aspects of God that Christian psychologists routinely ignore. In particular, His sovereignty, holiness, justice, kingly authority, and power are virtually unmentioned. The fatherly love of God is the great theme of these psychotherapists, but detached from the entirety of who God is, this love becomes the unconditional positive regard of a great therapist in the sky, indistinguishable from classic liberal theology. Biblical counseling follows the Bible and seeks to minister the love of the true and living God, whose love deals with sin and produces obedience (1 John).

Perspective of human nature and motivation. Almost every Christian psychologist espouses some variety of need theory. Needs for self-esteem, for love and acceptance, and for significance tend to dominate. If these needs are met, it is believed that people will be happy, kind and moral; if not met, people will be miserable, hateful, and immoral. Christian psychologists borrow their motivation theory directly from humanistic psychology. Scripture flatly opposes such need theories because it teaches that sinful human motivation roots in various cravings and lusts (Gal. 5:16–24, Eph. 2:3; James 1:14–16; 3:13–4:12). Scripture teaches that God changes our desires and that godly motivation is rooted in the desire for God and godliness. If people crave self-esteem, love, and significance, they will be happy if they get it and miserable if they don’t, but they will remain self-centered in either case. On the other hand, if people desire God (Ps. 42:1f; 73:25), God’s kingdom (Matt. 6:9–13; 6:33; 13:45f), godly wisdom (Prov. 3:15; 2 Tim. 2:22), and resurrection glory (Rom. 8:18–25), they will be satisfied, joyous, obedient, and profitable servants of God.

Perspective of the gospel. For most Christian psychologists, Jesus Christ is the meeter of built-in psychic needs and the healer of psychic wounds. The love of God at the cross simply portrays how valuable one is to God in order to boost self-esteem and to meet the need to be loved. But in the Bible, Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God crucified in the place of sinners. The love of God actually demolishes self-esteem and the lust for self-esteem. It produces, instead, a great and grateful esteem for the Son of God, who loved us and gave His life for us—the Lamb of God who alone is worthy. The love of God does not meet our lust to be loved as we are. It demolishes that deluded craving in order to love us despite who we are and to teach us to love God and neighbor (1 John 4:7–5:3).

Perspective of counseling. Christian psychologists tend to view counseling the same way secular psychologists view it: as a professional activity without any necessary connection to the Church of Jesus Christ. A client with a felt-need engages a professional for help in attaining goals of personal adjustment, emotional happiness, stability, self-fulfillment, and the like. But biblical counselors follow the Bible and view counseling as a pastoral activity. Their counseling aims at progressive sanctification and must communicate the true contents of Scripture. Biblical counseling connects logically and structurally to worship, discipleship, preaching, pastoral oversight, use of gifts, church discipline, and other aspects of life in the body of Christ. (David Powlison)

MacArthur, John, F., Jr, Wayne A. Mack, and Master's College. Introduction to Biblical Counseling : Basic Guide to the Principles and Practice of Counseling. Electronic ed., Page 362. Dallas, TX: Word Pub., 1997, c1994. http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/a ... eling.html


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victoryword
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Re: Pastor taking anti-depressants

Post by victoryword »

I have a number of books on my shelf that deals with this issue. Some of them by a couple named Martin & Deidre Bobgan who have written a number of books on this issue. They have a number of books that can be downloaded:

http://www.pamweb.org/mainpage.html


Here's one that pertains to this issue:
http://www.pamweb.org/e-books/ECP-ebk.pdf


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Justaned
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Re: Pastor taking anti-depressants

Post by Justaned »

bibleman wrote:
Justaned wrote:Well perhaps not it seems that definitions come and go around here. What is the difference?

Ed

Here is a good article that tells the difference by your hero John MacArthur.
Is there any difference between biblical counseling and Christian psychology or Christian counseling?

MacArthur, John, F., Jr, Wayne A. Mack

At a superficial glance, it would appear that a biblical counselor and a psychotherapist who is a Christian do many of the same things. Both converse with people; both care about people; both get to know people; both are interested in motivation, thoughts, emotions, and behavior; both explore the various pressures in a person’s situation; both give feedback; perhaps both talk about Jesus or a passage of Scripture. So how do they differ? To understand how Christianized psychotherapy differs from biblical counseling it is necessary to look closely at what each practices and teaches. Here are some of the distinctives of each.

Perspective of the Bible and its contribution to counseling. Most Christian psychologists view the Bible as an inspirational resource, but their basic system of counseling, both theory and methods, is transferred unaltered from secular psychology. Most are frankly and self-consciously eclectic, picking and choosing theories and techniques according to personal preference. In contrast, biblical counselors follow the Bible’s view of itself as the source of a comprehensive and detailed approach to understanding and counseling people (2 Tim. 3:15–17; 2 Pet. 1:4).Some Christian psychotherapists use few Scriptures; others use many. But frequency of citation is much less important than the way passages are used—or misused—and in the vast majority of cases the passages cited are completely misused. There is a dearth of contextualized exegesis (a critical interpretation of a text) and an abundance of eisegesis (interpreting a text by reading one’s own ideas into it). Biblical counseling is committed to letting God speak for Himself through His Word, and to handling the Word of Truth rightly (2 Tim. 2:15).

Perspective of God. There are many aspects of God that Christian psychologists routinely ignore. In particular, His sovereignty, holiness, justice, kingly authority, and power are virtually unmentioned. The fatherly love of God is the great theme of these psychotherapists, but detached from the entirety of who God is, this love becomes the unconditional positive regard of a great therapist in the sky, indistinguishable from classic liberal theology. Biblical counseling follows the Bible and seeks to minister the love of the true and living God, whose love deals with sin and produces obedience (1 John).

Perspective of human nature and motivation. Almost every Christian psychologist espouses some variety of need theory. Needs for self-esteem, for love and acceptance, and for significance tend to dominate. If these needs are met, it is believed that people will be happy, kind and moral; if not met, people will be miserable, hateful, and immoral. Christian psychologists borrow their motivation theory directly from humanistic psychology. Scripture flatly opposes such need theories because it teaches that sinful human motivation roots in various cravings and lusts (Gal. 5:16–24, Eph. 2:3; James 1:14–16; 3:13–4:12). Scripture teaches that God changes our desires and that godly motivation is rooted in the desire for God and godliness. If people crave self-esteem, love, and significance, they will be happy if they get it and miserable if they don’t, but they will remain self-centered in either case. On the other hand, if people desire God (Ps. 42:1f; 73:25), God’s kingdom (Matt. 6:9–13; 6:33; 13:45f), godly wisdom (Prov. 3:15; 2 Tim. 2:22), and resurrection glory (Rom. 8:18–25), they will be satisfied, joyous, obedient, and profitable servants of God.

Perspective of the gospel. For most Christian psychologists, Jesus Christ is the meeter of built-in psychic needs and the healer of psychic wounds. The love of God at the cross simply portrays how valuable one is to God in order to boost self-esteem and to meet the need to be loved. But in the Bible, Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God crucified in the place of sinners. The love of God actually demolishes self-esteem and the lust for self-esteem. It produces, instead, a great and grateful esteem for the Son of God, who loved us and gave His life for us—the Lamb of God who alone is worthy. The love of God does not meet our lust to be loved as we are. It demolishes that deluded craving in order to love us despite who we are and to teach us to love God and neighbor (1 John 4:7–5:3).

Perspective of counseling. Christian psychologists tend to view counseling the same way secular psychologists view it: as a professional activity without any necessary connection to the Church of Jesus Christ. A client with a felt-need engages a professional for help in attaining goals of personal adjustment, emotional happiness, stability, self-fulfillment, and the like. But biblical counselors follow the Bible and view counseling as a pastoral activity. Their counseling aims at progressive sanctification and must communicate the true contents of Scripture. Biblical counseling connects logically and structurally to worship, discipleship, preaching, pastoral oversight, use of gifts, church discipline, and other aspects of life in the body of Christ. (David Powlison)

MacArthur, John, F., Jr, Wayne A. Mack, and Master's College. Introduction to Biblical Counseling : Basic Guide to the Principles and Practice of Counseling. Electronic ed., Page 362. Dallas, TX: Word Pub., 1997, c1994. http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/a ... eling.html
Why on earth would you quote MacArthur who you have previously stated is at the same level as the village idiot?

However if you accept his definitions then yes I do know the difference between Christian Counseling and Biblical Counseling. And just so you know there are situations and conditions that allow the two to blend and it is nearly impossible to separate the two with that happens.

I still say there are conditions that while we wait for God to heal them we can offer immediate relief using medication. Also if someone tries to help a person in depression without first ruling out such things as physical causes like tumors in certain areas of the brain that can cause depression they are little more than someone that throws bones on the floor and dances around them.


victoryword
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Re: Pastor taking anti-depressants

Post by victoryword »

In my college Psychology class I was taught that psychology was built upon the theory of evolution. Not sure why Christians would want to utilize a method whose foundation is built on an ungodly scientific theory.


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Justaned
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Re: Pastor taking anti-depressants

Post by Justaned »

I don't think anyone is advocating Psychology here. Personally I have no desire to engage in psychology or any of that psycho babble nonsense.

I think the discussion is more centered on the use of drugs to aid in the treatment of depression.

I openly agree some depression comes from stinking thinking.

But not one can deny there are often other factors such a physical issues that can bring it on.

Many people tend to discount depression, however while I have never suffered from depression I am convinced by others that it can be more than just bad thinking. And while I totally believe that God can and will heal depression I also believe it behooves us to look at a full physical work up and possible medications before we discount the possibility that God may desire to treat us through modern medical practices.


victoryword
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Re: Pastor taking anti-depressants

Post by victoryword »

Ed, you reject the "psycho-babble" but you accept the drug treatment that comes from the Psycho-bablists? I really don't get you.

INteresting article in this link

Psychotropic Medications: In Search of a Biblical Context
http://bcinstitute.com/psychotropic-med ... context-2/


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Justaned
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Re: Pastor taking anti-depressants

Post by Justaned »

victoryword wrote:Ed, you reject the "psycho-babble" but you accept the drug treatment that comes from the Psycho-bablists? I really don't get you.

INteresting article in this link

Psychotropic Medications: In Search of a Biblical Context
http://bcinstitute.com/psychotropic-med ... context-2/

Huh??? Christian Psycho-babblist (Psychologist) can't prescribe medication.
Only Psychiatrist or Neurologist both of which have PHD in medicine. While I would not be too heavily influenced by a psychiatrist I would advise someone with depression to seek out a Neurologist to eliminate any possible physical condition that could be causing or exacerbating the depression.


victoryword
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Re: Pastor taking anti-depressants

Post by victoryword »

Justaned wrote:Huh??? Christian Psycho-babblist (Psychologist) can't prescribe medication.
Only Psychiatrist or Neurologist both of which have PHD in medicine. While I would not be too heavily influenced by a psychiatrist I would advise someone with depression to seek out a Neurologist to eliminate any possible physical condition that could be causing or exacerbating the depression.
Then it goes back to what I was saying earlier. Psychiatry/psychology is based on the theory of evolution. This is the foundation upon which it is built. Furthermore as pointed out in another article:
  • In his book, Blaming the Brain (1998), Elliot Valenstein , professor emeritus of neuroscience wrote: “Although it is often stated with great confidence that depressed people have a serotonin or norepinephrine deficiency, the evidence actually contradicts these claims” (p. 292).
http://bcinstitute.com/a-biblical-respo ... -conclude/

You know, when the "experts" begin refuting the teachings of their own colleagues, it makes me wonder about putting the stuff that they prescribe into my body, especially if it is going to affect my brain.


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Justaned
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Re: Pastor taking anti-depressants

Post by Justaned »

victoryword wrote:
Justaned wrote:Huh??? Christian Psycho-babblist (Psychologist) can't prescribe medication.
Only Psychiatrist or Neurologist both of which have PHD in medicine. While I would not be too heavily influenced by a psychiatrist I would advise someone with depression to seek out a Neurologist to eliminate any possible physical condition that could be causing or exacerbating the depression.
Then it goes back to what I was saying earlier. Psychiatry/psychology is based on the theory of evolution. This is the foundation upon which it is built. Furthermore as pointed out in another article:
Then what goes back? Neurology is not based on the theory of evolution.


victoryword
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Re: Pastor taking anti-depressants

Post by victoryword »

Justaned wrote:
victoryword wrote:
Justaned wrote:Huh??? Christian Psycho-babblist (Psychologist) can't prescribe medication.
Only Psychiatrist or Neurologist both of which have PHD in medicine. While I would not be too heavily influenced by a psychiatrist I would advise someone with depression to seek out a Neurologist to eliminate any possible physical condition that could be causing or exacerbating the depression.
Then it goes back to what I was saying earlier. Psychiatry/psychology is based on the theory of evolution. This is the foundation upon which it is built. Furthermore as pointed out in another article:
Then what goes back? Neurology is not based on the theory of evolution.
You may have missed it but I added a "furthermore..." in my post.


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