Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ WHAT IS LORDSHIP SALVATION????

[Justaned]

Jesus took a little child, stood him in the midst of the disciples, and said, “Truly I say to you, unless you are converted and become like children, you shall not enter the kingdom of heaven” (Matthew 18:3) A child is the perfect picture of obedient humility,’ an object lesson about saving faith.
Jesus used this illustration to teach that if we insist on retaining the privileges of adulthood—if we want to be our own boss, do our own thing, govern our own lives—we cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven. But if we are willing to come on the basis of childlike faith and receive salvation with the humility of a child, with a willingness to surrender to Christ’s authority, then we are coming with the right attitude.
Jesus said, “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and 1 give them eternal life; and they shall never perish” (John 10:27—28, emphasis added). Who are the true sheep? The ones who follow. Who are the ones who follow? The ones who are given eternal life.
Faith obeys. Unbelief rebels. The fruit of one’s life reveals whether that person is a believer or an unbeliever. There is no middle ground. 2 Merely knowing and affirming facts apart from obedience to the truth is not believing in the biblical sense. Those who cling to the memory of a one-time decision of “faith” but lack any evidence that faith has continued to operate in their lives had better heed the clear and solemn warning of Scripture: “He who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him” (John 3:36).

[Rocky]

Ed I personally believe that you are just playing dumb here..
Here is another that sees is it the way I do, now this video was not part of my studies but here is another person that knows about this theology.
[video][/video]
Also because I can tell you have only studied one side here is the other side
http://www.bibleprophecyblog.com/2011/0 ... ation.html

Disclaimer- I do not believe in all of the beliefs that are contained in the link or believe in every thing that the Dr in the video believes nor do I adhere to the statements of faith at faithalone.org ..

[Rocky]

Lordship Salvation from all the definitions that I can find is saying. Faith that is relying only on intellectual acquiescence to a set of facts will not save. Intellectual assent is not saving faith. People in many cases say they have faith (James 2:14) but have no genuine conversion. Mere verbal assent or mental acquiescence to the fact of Christ's death without conviction of personal sin is inadequate. That true salvation requires obedience, commitment, and a yielding of wills. Faithful believing is faithful obedience.

Matthew 5:3 reveals the character of a true faith. "Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. These are redeemed people, those who have believed. Here is what their faith is like.
Fundamental characteristic Humility a brokenness that acknowledges spiritual bankruptcy. They know they have nothing to offer God that will buy his favor. This is why they truly morn Matthew 5:4 with sorrow that accompanies true repentance. It crushes the believer to Meekness verse 5 He hungers and thirsts for righteousness verse 6 As the Lord satisfies that hunger , He makes the believing one merciful verse 6, pure in heart verse 7 and a peacemaker verse 9. The believer is ultimately persecuted and reviled for righteousness sake. verse 10.

That is Jesus' description of true faith. It starts with humility and reaches fruition in obedience.

Notice the word reaches fruition no one in Lordship Salvation is claiming this to be instantaneous experience but rather a walk of sanctification.

Ed what ever happen to

Peter: Believe on the lord Jesus and you will be save and your house hold

Ed, are you just over complicating things??
2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ
Also:

The Gospel of John:
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth
on him.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Acts:
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Romans
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness

1 Peter:
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

1 John:
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

According to the Bible all that one has to do to be saved is believe, not What Lordship salvation says. So who is right, the bible or John MacArther?

[Justaned]

Ed I personally believe that you are just playing dumb here..
Here is another that sees is it the way I do, now this video was not part of my studies but here is another person that knows about this theology.
[video][/video]
Also because I can tell you have only studied one side here is the other side
http://www.bibleprophecyblog.com/2011/0 ... ation.html

Disclaimer- I do not believe in all of the beliefs that are contained in the link or believe in every thing that the Dr in the video believes nor do I adhere to the statements of faith at faithalone.org ..

Well both of these are saying what you are saying but neither mention who is teaching Lordship Salvation or offers a quote of what is being taught. In other words they are just saying it is wrong but little else.

As for the guy in the video he started out sounding like me then he magically changed mid stream. I would like to have heard what was said to him that caused the change in direction.

My question to you is do you believe you must obey Jesus? Do you believe you must commit to serving Him?
If you said no to either then what do you believe?

[Justaned]

Lordship Salvation from all the definitions that I can find is saying. Faith that is relying only on intellectual acquiescence to a set of facts will not save. Intellectual assent is not saving faith. People in many cases say they have faith (James 2:14) but have no genuine conversion. Mere verbal assent or mental acquiescence to the fact of Christ's death without conviction of personal sin is inadequate. That true salvation requires obedience, commitment, and a yielding of wills. Faithful believing is faithful obedience.

Matthew 5:3 reveals the character of a true faith. "Blessed are the poor in spirit for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. These are redeemed people, those who have believed. Here is what their faith is like.
Fundamental characteristic Humility a brokenness that acknowledges spiritual bankruptcy. They know they have nothing to offer God that will buy his favor. This is why they truly morn Matthew 5:4 with sorrow that accompanies true repentance. It crushes the believer to Meekness verse 5 He hungers and thirsts for righteousness verse 6 As the Lord satisfies that hunger , He makes the believing one merciful verse 6, pure in heart verse 7 and a peacemaker verse 9. The believer is ultimately persecuted and reviled for righteousness sake. verse 10.

That is Jesus' description of true faith. It starts with humility and reaches fruition in obedience.

Notice the word reaches fruition no one in Lordship Salvation is claiming this to be instantaneous experience but rather a walk of sanctification.

Ed what ever happen to

Peter: Believe on the lord Jesus and you will be save and your house hold

Ed, are you just over complicating things??
2Cr 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ
Also:

The Gospel of John:
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth
on him.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

Acts:
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
Romans
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness

1 Peter:
Wherefore also it is contained in the scripture, Behold, I lay in Sion a chief corner stone, elect, precious: and he that believeth on him shall not be confounded.

1 John:
Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

According to the Bible all that one has to do to be saved is believe, not What Lordship salvation says. So who is right, the bible or John MacArther?

You are falling into easy believism. Where you are saying I say I believe therefore I'm saved but nothing has to change.

All the verses you quoted above point the start of salvation, not to the mature believer. If what you are saying is true then why did the Apostles leave their comfort and homes to go into the world to be abused, tortured and eventually murdered? Why did Peter and Paul give their lives when all they had to do to be saved was simply believe?

This Easy believism is what is destroying the American Church. People are attending church on Sunday and living like the world the rest of the time. What is the point? Without obedience, commitment, servant-hood, perseverance. Paul said we are in a race. Why race if all we have to do is sit and say I believe? Paul says we must persevere. Why bother just sit there and say I believe. Why did the early church go the Colosseum to die when all they had to do is live like everyone else and simply believe in Jesus?

If the world does not know you are a Christian I can assure you Jesus doesn't either.

Again nobody is saying you have to make Jesus Lord before you can be saved but if Jesus doesn't become Lord of your life shortly thereafter salvation something is wrong.

[Justaned]

At the website Rocky gave for me to read I saw this.

Salvation destroys the believer's assurance of salvation. Lordship advocates never precisely define what kind of commitment to Christ is necessary in order to become a Christian. How much surrender is required? How long is this surrender to last? How much fruit must this surrender produce?

Do these sound like questions that someone that believe Christianity is the truth and the way to life would ask? Or do they sound like questions that someone that is only concerned about staying out of hell would ask?

How must do I have to do of this Christianity to be saved?

Not praise God I'm saved from all the burdens that were trying to tear me down. Praise God I'm saved I don't have to feel guilty or afraid.

I have a friend that once said, "Ed if someone someday proved that Christianity as false I still would not change living like a Christian, that is how much my life has improved since I got saved." To me that is a testimony of the power of God. To so change a person they never look back.

Yet these websites that rebuke Lordship are filled with questions like, How long do I have to act like a Christian? How long do I have to stop sinning before I'm sure I'm saved. How much good works must I do?

The idea is to be so changed, that good works is what you do, not because you have too, but because you are privileged enough to serve God doing them.

[Justaned]

Rocky has still not produced one quote or one example of teaching from an advocate of Lordship Theology that says the unsaved must make Jesus Lord of the their life before they can realize salvation. I want to see one quote, one teaching, one lecture from an advocate of Lordship that says any of that.

Let me say up front if in fact Rocky can produce such and what is said is supported by context of the person making such a quote I will go on record as say that person is wrong and that is false teaching.

But from what I can find that is not Lordship teaching, Lordship teaching is the teaching that once you are in Christ you life must change, you will be obedient to Christ, you will keep His commandments, you will commit yourself to serving Christ. You will persevere to pleasing to God. Jesus said if you love me keep my commandments, how can it be any other way?
Jesus taught on trying to have two masters/Lords saying you can't do that you will end up loving one and hating the other.
Why did Jesus teach this if He didn't intend for all His followers (Christians) to make Him Lord of their lives?

[Justaned]

John 8:31 (NKJV)
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, "If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed.

[If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed] There are 1,595 "if's" in the Bible and all of them express a condition if one of them does. The condition to be met if these new believers were to remain as true disciples and have freedom from sin was: "continue in My Word" (Jn. 8:31-32); for if any man "committeth sin" he "is the servant of sin" (Jn. 8:34).
Finis Jennings Dake, Dake's Annotated Reference Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized or King James Version Text, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Bible Sales, Inc., 1997), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "Chapter 8".

[Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin] No man can commit sin and not be a servant of sin (Jn. 8:34). No man can sin and not have to pay the penalty for sin (Gen. 2:17; Ezek. 18:4; Rom. 8:12-13; 1Cor. 6:9-11; Gal. 5:19-21; 6:7-8).
Finis Jennings Dake, Dake's Annotated Reference Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized or King James Version Text, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Bible Sales, Inc., 1997), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "Chapter 8".

Romans 14:7-9 (NKJV)
7 For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself.
8 For if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. Therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.
9 For to this end Christ died and rose and lived again, that He might be Lord of both the dead and the living.

Galatians 2:20 (NKJV)
20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me.

a [I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me] The death of Christ on the cross showed me that there was no salvation by the law. I was crucified with Him and I live with Him. It is not really my life. It is His life that I am partaking of. The life I now live in the flesh is one of faith in Christ, who loved me, and made it possible for me to live by faith.
Finis Jennings Dake, Dake's Annotated Reference Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized or King James Version Text, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Bible Sales, Inc., 1997), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "Chapter 2".

Does anyone deny that Dake believed Jesus must be Lord of our lives?

[Justaned]

Romans 6:11-14 (NKJV)
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

[Justaned]

There is a theological teaching going around Christendom that says it is possible for one to accept Jesus as Savior without also recognizing Him and accepting Him as Lord; that it is possible to believe in Jesus without repenting of sin and yielding to His authority. To be sure, many of those who teach such a message do so out of a passion to keep the grace of God free of human effort and human works. But in reacting to one false teaching, I believe they have ridden the pendulum from one extreme to embrace another. As a result, they have abandoned such concepts of repentance and obedience and submission from the message of the gospel.

Two Extremes

Salvation without Works

Salvation on the Basis of Works

Truth
Salvation accompanied by Works

Faith without making Jesus Lord becomes a mere intellectual exercise. Instead of people being called to repentance, they are called only to assent to certain historical facts about Jesus. Discipleship becomes optional.


Jesus has just made a very strong statement that discipleship involves a willingness to come and die. This is a great cost. Jesus goes on to picture this willingness with two illustrations.

Both the building and the king are in danger of committing themselves to a course of action without having first counting the cost.

The question they both face is whether or not they have the resources to complete what they have started. If they fail to finish what they have started, the result will be humiliation and shame.

The point of these two illustrations is the same. It is that you are called to count the cost of discipleship and to make a determination as to whether you will see it through to the end.

This is quite different than the easy-believism invitation that suggests that you "give Jesus a try" in much the same way that you test-drive a sports car. Jesus says, "Only come if you are going to come for keeps."

Evangelists often come across as a used car salesman: "Don’t read the fine print; we’ll get to that later." But Jesus tells unbelievers to count the cost before coming to Him.

Jesus calls you to recognize Him as the Lord of your life. He wants it all. He refuses to be sectored off to a small portion of your life. He refuses to be a weekend God. And so, He calls for you to count the cost. If you are going to be a Christian, be a real one.
http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/lordship.html