Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ God's role in sickness - Permissive or Causative

[branham1965]

i guess you arent talking to me anymore???
why dont you just let loose and tell them what you believe and saw and have at it...all of it????arent you sick of the game!!!!
people always are putting on a face and being actors.
everyone just say what you mean!!!!


i need to be 86'd.just like alot of bars here in Columbus.im 86'd there too.im going out as a grown man with my chest out.

Isn't God free to play an active or a passive role in sickness?

I don't think the distinction is between acitve or passive; I think it's between causative or permissive.

God certainly took an active role in what happened with Job. He had put a hedge around him, which had to be removed in order for Satan to be able to get at him. God was also active in limiting the extent to which Satan could bring calamity into Job's life. He was active in using the working of Satan as a means of testing Job. So in that sense, God was in control of the situation without being the cause of what was happening.

I think we see the same active role of God later in the testing of Peter (Luke 22.31-34), and in the provision of a "way of escape" from the tests and tempations that come to us all (1 Cor 10.13).

Father Fisher, can you boil all this down? Active, passive, causative or permissive when it comes to God's role?? There seems to be more agreement defining Satan's role!?

I agree with Dr. Dake re. God having six purposes for allowing Satan to continue. I disagree with VW's argument that God has allowed Satan to continue for the sole purpose of demonstrating He is a good God.

I agree with VW's main position that man is responsible for resolving all his problems based on the atonement and instructions of the New Covenant.

I agree with Ed that God has had and does have a major influence in the lives of each person as well as the events in Joseph's life and other patriarchs. God was and is active in the lives of unbelievers setting up circumstances for events to turn out in the way He wishes BUT NOT ALL EVENTS AND MAN'S ACTIONS, which would be Calvinism.

Do we have three or four positions here? Could everyone (FF, VW and Ed) make a short, concise position summary?

Dolph
Your right quoting proof texts doesn't prove much, but I did it because this is the proof text crowd. However there are enough verses to supply witness testimony (God through Moses that it take two or three witnesses for conviction).

Now you ask if we have three or four positions and there probably are and even more if everyone was able to clearly articulate their personal view of God interaction with man.

The problem however, I really believe this to be true, is we try to define God in man's understanding. And God clearly told us His ways are not man's ways.
That means God is able to do things that man can not comprehend, understand or define.
God has given us free will, we know this because God has told us for our salvation we must believe in Jesus Christ and that if we don't believe we are doomed.
But we also know what we read in various Bible stories where people and demonsour adversary do various things intending for one outcome and God using his sovereign power makes those things work to good of God's people.

How can this happen? In man's world it can't it would require God to manipulate man, events, factors to have it turn out in God's favor.

However in scripture says with God nothing is impossible. I believe that.
I believe God is able to be in total and absolute control but never hinder man's free will choices. Impossible for man but very possible with God.

How does God do this? I don't know but I believe God's ability to transcend time meaning God can see the future as well as the past and present enables God to incorporate man's free will decisions into His overall plan long before man has made his decision.

What makes me wonder the most is people that see God as little more than a bemused spectator of the happenings on earth, praying. If God is surprised by one's death then why pray for long life God by their thinking isn't in control of it? Why pray for health if Christians never were meant to be sick, and God has nothing to do with who is sick or not? Why pray for a healing when God doesn't control you destiny?

I mean if you really believe this world is controled by Satan and God can do nothing why pray? Now someone mentioned that our prayers free God. Is that prideful or what. Man not God is in control of what God is able to do.

Many cite the passage where Jesus due to their disbelief was unable to do mighty works. However the full passage says Jesus still healed people, still ministered to their physical needs. Jesus just wasn't able to do HIs MIGHTY work which is salvation. Why because God gave man free will and man refuses to believe God can't save him.

[branham1965]

im sorry for these posts.i dont.please remove them and remove me.please.

[Justaned]

like everything else its been abused to death.

The written WORD is the Logos .The spoken WORD is a Rhema Word from God.

God gave a Rhema WORD to Pastor Bible then it applied for his land.

He did it for my late Reverend.

extremes exist in everything.

Billy
I wasn't ignoring you I simply hadn't read the forum in a while. Yes you are right God does give us things, in fact scripture says the desires of our heart. But not all the time and not the instant we ask. Also if something we ask for is going to be determent to our spiritual walk God will often times say no.

But the fact that someone or a bunch of someone's go and walk on a piece of property does not guarantee God is going to give them the land.
That promise was made to Abraham for a particular piece of the property, for a particular place in time.

Now if God tells someone that He God will give them a piece of property and all they have to do is walk on the land then I would expect God to be faithful to His word. But I doubt God makes that promise many times even though a lot of people have claimed he did.

[branham1965]

WHAT??? YOU WANT A PIECE OF ME????

i hope to God you are joking.

[bibleman]

Billy

Now if God tells someone that He God will give them a piece of property and all they have to do is walk on the land then I would expect God to be faithful to His word. But I doubt God makes that promise many times even though a lot of people have claimed he did.

Hi Ed,

For people like you who have no faith in believing and confessing for land... what do you say to those who have received it just that way?

As Billy and my favorite preacher Brother Hagin use to say... You can believe and receive or doubt and do without!

[Justaned]

No where in scripture does God ever promise, imply or suggest that was the normative way to get a piece of property. The fact that it worked for someone does not mean it was God's intention or God's doing. It simply means that is what they did and they got the land.

We know Satan is a counterfeiter and without naming names or pointing any fingers I know Satan could and would plant such a false teaching and make it come to fruition just to propagate the lie.

We have all seen many counterfeits from the adversary that from outward appearance appears to be blessed of God but we know they aren’t. The Mormon religion one of the fastest growing cultic Christian religions is a perfect example. Another is some of the Mega churches that have risen over time only to be exposed as hotbeds of sin and corruption.

So the real question becomes was it God, was it Satan or was it something that simply worked the way it did?

[branham1965]

thank you Pastor.
i sure miss him.

Billy

Now if God tells someone that He God will give them a piece of property and all they have to do is walk on the land then I would expect God to be faithful to His word. But I doubt God makes that promise many times even though a lot of people have claimed he did.

Hi Ed,

For people like you who have no faith in believing and confessing for land... what do you say to those who have received it just that way?

As Billy and my favorite preacher Brother Hagin use to say... You can believe and receive or doubt and do without!

[branham1965]

REVED
i think we can go to extremes either way.i have no doubt that the LORD gave Pastor Bible his Church.id stake my life on it.and Kimbos life.
He is in the business of doing good things like that for His beloved.
you sound more like a CHURCH OF CHRIST PREACHER than AG.i think you are fooling around.

No where in scripture does God ever promise, imply or that was the normative way to get a piece of property. The fact that it worked for someone does not mean it was God intention or God's doing. It simply means that is what they did and they got the land. (((((+goofy billy here you are kidding right????God does that all the time!!!

We know Satan is a counterfeiter and without naming names or pointing any fingers I know Satan could and would plant such a false teaching and make it come to fruition just to propagate the lie.((like who???say it????


We have all seen many counterfeits from the adversary that from outward appearance appears to be blessed of God but we know they aren’t. ((((this is a cult that denies the DEITY OF CHRIST. The Mormon religion one of the fastest growing cultic Christian religions is a perfect example. Another is some of the Mega churches that have risen over time only to be exposed as hotbeds of sin and corruption. (((most of the Megas are doing a good job.Joel Osteen is a good young man.i LOVED his Dad.

So the real question becomes was it God, was it Satan or was it something that simply worked the way it did?

(((((((((((( that sounds like bar talk frankly ....good grief.

[branham1965]

My Pastor got the land from God.i know it to be so.now he had almost purchased other properties but got a check in his spirit.he was a great man.he listened to God.he did the same with his home.
when...only when ...the Lord dealt with him about the Church properties he obeyed.

like everything else its been abused to death.

The written WORD is the Logos .The spoken WORD is a Rhema Word from God.

God gave a Rhema WORD to Pastor Bible then it applied for his land.

He did it for my late Reverend.

extremes exist in everything.

Billy
I wasn't ignoring you I simply hadn't read the forum in a while. Yes you are right God does give us things, in fact scripture says the desires of our heart. But not all the time and not the instant we ask. Also if something we ask for is going to be determent to our spiritual walk God will often times say no.

But the fact that someone or a bunch of someone's go and walk on a piece of property does not guarantee God is going to give them the land.
That promise was made to Abraham for a particular piece of the property, for a particular place in time.

Now if God tells someone that He God will give them a piece of property and all they have to do is walk on the land then I would expect God to be faithful to His word. But I doubt God makes that promise many times even though a lot of people have claimed he did.

[branham1965]

I APOLOGISE FOR CRACKING UP.AT NIGHT ITS REAL BAD.i dont know why.I MISSED MY MEDS YESTERDAY AND ...whew I WOULD NEVER INTENTIONALLY HURT WITH MY BIG MOUTH REVERED DAKE ,PASTOR BIBLE OR ........ANY ONE ON HERE.please pray.the Doctors...

im sorry for these posts.i dont.please remove them and remove me.please.