Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ What is faith?

[Justaned]

whats exactly is your point???

Does God HAVE TO save EVERYONE who applies Ro 10:9-10&17 or could He choose not to?

it is that God HAS TO do some things - everything He promised He'd do He WILL do.

God doesn't have to do anything. This is the 1% falsehood in many teachings.

However because God has said He would He will.

There is a big difference between "Having to do something" and Doing it because you said you will. And this is my point.

God is God and as God He doesn't have to do anything. No one can make Him, no can indict Him. However since God said He would He will.

Well you say the end result is the same God does what He said. You miss the point. One way false teachers interject error is to say something that sounds right and end result is seemingly the same. Once they get that crack in your thinking that "God has to" they then use it as a gateway for more falsehoods.

God doesn't have to do anything. However God will do whatever He has promised. Remember that there is a big difference between say God has to and God will and you need to recognized that.

[bibleman]

Hi Ed,

Where is the phrase "trust in God" in any of those passages?

The thought is there you are nit picking

We are not dealing with thoughts, we are dealing with (in your words) what is MORE correct.

Here is what you said: "I live by faith or more correctly by my trust in God."

The MORE correct Biblical term is "live by faith" - as I am sure you will agree.

[Justaned]

Hi Ed,

Where is the phrase "trust in God" in any of those passages?

The thought is there you are nit picking

We are not dealing with thoughts, we are dealing with (in your words) what is MORE correct.

Here is what you said: "I live by faith or more correctly by my trust in God."

The MORE correct Biblical term is "live by faith" - as I am sure you will agree.

I my opinion trust trumps God. Trust is faith in action. Faith can be nothing more than lip service. But once you put your trust in God you are committed. That to me speaks of a far greater commitment.
If you disagree so be it. I wouldn't doubt it because your faith is in your faith.

[bibleman]

Hi Ed,

Where is the phrase "trust in God" in any of those passages?

The thought is there you are nit picking

We are not dealing with thoughts, we are dealing with (in your words) what is MORE correct.

Here is what you said: "I live by faith or more correctly by my trust in God."

The MORE correct Biblical term is "live by faith" - as I am sure you will agree.

I my opinion trust trumps God. Trust is faith in action. Faith can be nothing more than lip service. But once you put your trust in God you are committed. That to me speaks of a far greater commitment.
If you disagree so be it. I wouldn't doubt it because your faith is in your faith.

Hi Ed,

You see Word of Faith people are "sticklers for the Word," as brother Hagin would say.

Our faith is in God.

Mark 11:22 - And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

BUT you change Jesus' Words and say Have trust in God.

I stay with the Words of Jesus!

The MORE correct Biblical term is "live by faith!" as you know.

[victoryword]

Abraham didn't hear the word of truth he heard the very voice of God telling him only to leave the place of his residence leave his family and go to where God would direct him. He didn't even know where he was going.

Your problem for having rejected the faith message is not because this truth does not work. It is because you really don't know what God's Word says and ignore it when it is shown to you. Let's start with Abraham:

• And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. (Rom. 4:19-21)
  
  That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. (Heb. 6:12-15)

Your ideas about Abraham not hearing "the Word of Faith" is lacking any Biblical merit.

David didn't hear the word of truth he experienced God. David fought the wild animals that attacked his flock and build faith in God.

David was able to believe, expect and boldly claim the promises of God because He knew that God’s words are true (2 Sam. 7:25-29):

• For You, O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, have revealed this to Your servant, saying, "I will build you a house.' Therefore Your servant has found it in his heart to pray this prayer to You. "And now, O Lord GOD, You are God, and Your words are true, and You have promised this goodness to Your servant (2 Sam. 7:27, 28).

David did not pray with uncertainty concerning the will of God. On the contrary, David prayed with complete assurance that God would do what he promised and brought the promise before Him. So David received a "Word of Faith" thus again refuting your statement.

Moses didn't hear the word of truth he also experienced God.

God revealed His will through His Word which led Moses to boldly intercede for Israel:

• And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my Lord be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying, The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now. And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word: (Num. 14:17-20)

Moses received a "word of faith" from God. So again, the BIBLE proves the "word of Ed" to be wrong.

I'm not saying Rom 10:17 is wrong but it is not the only way people come in the faith of God.

It is indeed the only way people come to faith in God. You need to read the whole chapter of Hebrews 11 and see that in each and every case they first heard a Word from God before they came to Him in faith. Seriously Ed, you do not know your Bible and you contiue to espouse false teaching here.

Likewise many people have heard the word of truth and still don't trust God.

Agreed. Faith must be received. It is not forced on a person. That is the exact reason why God becomes very angry with UNBELIEF. However, this answers all of your complaints about faith teaching. People, like yourself, hear the Word of truth and still don't believe what God says.

[victoryword]

whats exactly is your point???

Does God HAVE TO save EVERYONE who applies Ro 10:9-10&17 or could He choose not to?

it is that God HAS TO do some things - everything He promised He'd do He WILL do.

God doesn't have to do anything. This is the 1% falsehood in many teachings.

However because God has said He would He will.

There is a big difference between "Having to do something" and Doing it because you said you will. And this is my point.

God is God and as God He doesn't have to do anything. No one can make Him, no can indict Him. However since God said He would He will.

Well you say the end result is the same God does what He said. You miss the point. One way false teachers interject error is to say something that sounds right and end result is seemingly the same. Once they get that crack in your thinking that "God has to" they then use it as a gateway for more falsehoods.

God doesn't have to do anything. However God will do whatever He has promised. Remember that there is a big difference between say God has to and God will and you need to recognized that.

Ed, do you like C. H. Spurgeon? He was not a Word Faith teacher as you might know, but a Baptist-Calvinist. Yet, he seems to have more insight on this than many critics of the Faith message:

• “On the throne of grace, sovereignty has placed itself under bonds of love. God will do as He wills, but on the mercy seat, He is under bonds of His own making, for He has entered into covenant with Christ, and so into covenant with His chosen. Though God is and ever must be sovereign, He will never break His covenant nor alter the word that has gone out of His mouth. He cannot be false to a covenant of His own making. When I come to God in Christ, to God on the mercy seat, I need not imagine that by any act of sovereignty God will set aside His covenant. That is impossible.
  
  “Moreover, on the throne of grace, God is again bound to us by His promises. The covenant contains in it many gracious promises, exceeding great and precious promises. ‘Ask, and it shall be given you; seek and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you’ (Matt. 7:7). Until God said that word or a word to that effect, it was at His own option to hear prayer or not, but it is not so now. If true prayer is offered through Jesus Christ, His truth binds Him to hear it. A man may be perfectly free, but the moment he makes a promise he is not free to break it; and the everlasting God will not break His promise. He delights to fulfill it.” (The Power of Prayer in the Life of the Believer)

Do you disagree with the great Calvinist Baptist prince of preachers Ed?

[Justaned]

Hi Ed,

Where is the phrase "trust in God" in any of those passages?

The thought is there you are nit picking

We are not dealing with thoughts, we are dealing with (in your words) what is MORE correct.

Here is what you said: "I live by faith or more correctly by my trust in God."

The MORE correct Biblical term is "live by faith" - as I am sure you will agree.

I my opinion trust trumps God. Trust is faith in action. Faith can be nothing more than lip service. But once you put your trust in God you are committed. That to me speaks of a far greater commitment.
If you disagree so be it. I wouldn't doubt it because your faith is in your faith.

Hi Ed,

You see Word of Faith people are "sticklers for the Word," as brother Hagin would say.

Our faith is in God.

Mark 11:22 - And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

BUT you change Jesus' Words and say Have trust in God.

I stay with the Words of Jesus!

The MORE correct Biblical term is "live by faith!" as you know.

That is right you are a stickler for the word. Just as the Pharisees. Jesus said they kept the letter of the law but missed the intent. Legally you are correct but it seems you missed the intent of the words.
Yes we are to have faith, but unless faith is converted into trust and works as James said it is dead. Dead faith does nothing.

[Justaned]

Abraham didn't hear the word of truth he heard the very voice of God telling him only to leave the place of his residence leave his family and go to where God would direct him. He didn't even know where he was going.

Your problem for having rejected the faith message is not because this truth does not work. It is because you really don't know what God's Word says and ignore it when it is shown to you. Let's start with Abraham:

• And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb: He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God; And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. (Rom. 4:19-21)
  
  That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises. For when God made promise to Abraham, because he could swear by no greater, he sware by himself, Saying, Surely blessing I will bless thee, and multiplying I will multiply thee. And so, after he had patiently endured, he obtained the promise. (Heb. 6:12-15)

Your ideas about Abraham not hearing "the Word of Faith" is lacking any Biblical merit.

David didn't hear the word of truth he experienced God. David fought the wild animals that attacked his flock and build faith in God.

David was able to believe, expect and boldly claim the promises of God because He knew that God’s words are true (2 Sam. 7:25-29):

• For You, O LORD of hosts, God of Israel, have revealed this to Your servant, saying, "I will build you a house.' Therefore Your servant has found it in his heart to pray this prayer to You. "And now, O Lord GOD, You are God, and Your words are true, and You have promised this goodness to Your servant (2 Sam. 7:27, 28).

David did not pray with uncertainty concerning the will of God. On the contrary, David prayed with complete assurance that God would do what he promised and brought the promise before Him. So David received a "Word of Faith" thus again refuting your statement.

Moses didn't hear the word of truth he also experienced God.

God revealed His will through His Word which led Moses to boldly intercede for Israel:

• And now, I beseech thee, let the power of my Lord be great, according as thou hast spoken, saying, The LORD is longsuffering, and of great mercy, forgiving iniquity and transgression, and by no means clearing the guilty, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation. Pardon, I beseech thee, the iniquity of this people according unto the greatness of thy mercy, and as thou hast forgiven this people, from Egypt even until now. And the LORD said, I have pardoned according to thy word: (Num. 14:17-20)

Moses received a "word of faith" from God. So again, the BIBLE proves the "word of Ed" to be wrong.

I'm not saying Rom 10:17 is wrong but it is not the only way people come in the faith of God.

It is indeed the only way people come to faith in God. You need to read the whole chapter of Hebrews 11 and see that in each and every case they first heard a Word from God before they came to Him in faith. Seriously Ed, you do not know your Bible and you contiue to espouse false teaching here.

Likewise many people have heard the word of truth and still don't trust God.

Agreed. Faith must be received. It is not forced on a person. That is the exact reason why God becomes very angry with UNBELIEF. However, this answers all of your complaints about faith teaching. People, like yourself, hear the Word of truth and still don't believe what God says.

I not going to argue this with you obviously you meant something different than I understood you to say when you said the Word of Faith. My mistake.
They didn't hear the Word of Faith they heard God and trusted in God is what I'm saying. They didn't have to have any special teaching, Word of Faith teaching to do so.

[Justaned]

whats exactly is your point???

Does God HAVE TO save EVERYONE who applies Ro 10:9-10&17 or could He choose not to?

it is that God HAS TO do some things - everything He promised He'd do He WILL do.

God doesn't have to do anything. This is the 1% falsehood in many teachings.

However because God has said He would He will.

There is a big difference between "Having to do something" and Doing it because you said you will. And this is my point.

God is God and as God He doesn't have to do anything. No one can make Him, no can indict Him. However since God said He would He will.

Well you say the end result is the same God does what He said. You miss the point. One way false teachers interject error is to say something that sounds right and end result is seemingly the same. Once they get that crack in your thinking that "God has to" they then use it as a gateway for more falsehoods.

God doesn't have to do anything. However God will do whatever He has promised. Remember that there is a big difference between say God has to and God will and you need to recognized that.

Ed, do you like C. H. Spurgeon? He was not a Word Faith teacher as you might know, but a Baptist-Calvinist. Yet, he seems to have more insight on this than many critics of the Faith message:

• “On the throne of grace, sovereignty has placed itself under bonds of love. God will do as He wills, but on the mercy seat, He is under bonds of His own making, for He has entered into covenant with Christ, and so into covenant with His chosen. Though God is and ever must be sovereign, He will never break His covenant nor alter the word that has gone out of His mouth. He cannot be false to a covenant of His own making. When I come to God in Christ, to God on the mercy seat, I need not imagine that by any act of sovereignty God will set aside His covenant. That is impossible.
  
  “Moreover, on the throne of grace, God is again bound to us by His promises. The covenant contains in it many gracious promises, exceeding great and precious promises. ‘Ask, and it shall be given you; seek and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you’ (Matt. 7:7). Until God said that word or a word to that effect, it was at His own option to hear prayer or not, but it is not so now. If true prayer is offered through Jesus Christ, His truth binds Him to hear it. A man may be perfectly free, but the moment he makes a promise he is not free to break it; and the everlasting God will not break His promise. He delights to fulfill it.” (The Power of Prayer in the Life of the Believer)

Do you disagree with the great Calvinist Baptist prince of preachers Ed?

I don't disagree with Spurgeon.
The point I was making is there is a world of difference between saying "God must" or "God has to" and saying "God will"

If you don't/can't/refuse to see that difference what can I say?

The idea God has to do anything is an antithesis to the meaning of God. For man to presume to be able to judge God is both prideful and heretical. For man to try to force an idea by saying God "has to" is blasphemy.

Will God do it? If God said He would He will. Nothing more needs to be said. And I refuse to respect or listen to any preacher that uses the words God must, or God has to. The man is speaking of things he does not understand but more importantly does not fear. Proverbs 1:7 (NKJV)
7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Psalm 111:10 (NKJV)
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments. His praise endures forever.

[victoryword]

I don't disagree with Spurgeon.
The point I was making is there is a world of difference between saying "God must" or "God has to" and saying "God will"

If you don't/can't/refuse to see that difference what can I say?

The idea God has to do anything is an antithesis to the meaning of God. For man to presume to be able to judge God is both prideful and heretical. For man to try to force an idea by saying God "has to" is blasphemy.

Will God do it? If God said He would He will. Nothing more needs to be said. And I refuse to respect or listen to any preacher that uses the words God must, or God has to. The man is speaking of things he does not understand but more importantly does not fear. Proverbs 1:7 (NKJV)
7 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge, But fools despise wisdom and instruction.
Psalm 111:10 (NKJV)
10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom; A good understanding have all those who do His commandments. His praise endures forever.

Semantics.

If God has bound Himself to something then He must do it. There is no difference between what Frad70 said, what the Faith Teachers have said (which you call false), and what Spurgeon has said.