Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Finis Dake on Positive Confession

[branham1965]

PREACH IT REVED.

THE OLD TIME PENTECOSTALS NEVER BELIEVED FOR A MOMENT WHAT SOME ARE TEACHING TODAY.
WHEN CERTAIN ABERRANT TEACHINGS WERE SWALLOWED THE PENTECOSTAL MOVEMENT CHANGED FOREVER.
PEOPLE KNOCK THE ONENESS PENTECOSTALS.OKAY.BUT ILL GIVE THEM THIS THEIR WOMEN DRESS MODESTLY LIKE THEY DID 100 YEARS AGO.
THEY PREACH OLD HOLINESS ,SPIRITUAL WARFARE,GOD SUPPLYING OUR NEEDS JUST LIKE YOU DO REVEREND ED.

I do not see a message of doubt in anything Watchman2013 or myself has said. In fact both of us are saying you my trust God. What I see is Watchman2013 and myself fighting the false teaching that if you have enough faith and all you will never have your faith tested. That is patently untrue. Every disciple, every member of the early church, every major church father and every true Christian today has trials that test their faith.

Not to destroy their faith but to build it stronger and stronger. Just as David's faith was built as a shepherd boy. He faced the wolf, the bear and the lion and God let him prevail. So that when he stood before Goliath it wasn't with untested faith but faith that let him more in confidence.

Victorywood would have you believe is your own making, instead of a gift from God and that it grows strong by hearing men like Victorywood talking nonsense instead of being tested. And we all know testing is never fun but it is needed.

Ed

First, I did not really read Watchman's post, and I did not read it intentionally. I was responding only to Rocky and making a reference to all proclamations of doubt and unbelief and the subsequent cursing of one's "enemies" when a debate gets a little heated. You may not agree with my theology of faith (which is based on God's Word) but you really shouldn't misrepresent it or claim that I believe something that I don't. You see, that is typical heresy hunting stratagem born in the school of Hank Hanegraaff and John MacArthur.

But Ed, no need for an apology. Just give me a free hotdog. Have mine prepared with ketchup, mustard and relish. YUM!! My mouth is watering just talking about

I don't think I have misrepresented your theology in fact I think I nailed it when I exposed it as being false. You either trust in God or you trust in your faith.
I trust in God and I believe from what you have said you trust in your faith. That you have enough faith to make God indentured to you. I say that is a falsehood. Scripture clearly says God is in no man's debt.

Alright Ed

Let me show you this strawman you built so that you can stop beating your chest for having "exposed" me. Now, by the numbers:

1. You claim that you and W-2013 are fighting the false teaching that if you have enough faith and all you will never have your faith tested. The only problem is that I nor anyone else has taught that. So this is a strawman Ed. On the contrary I and others have taught the opposite of what you and W-2013 claim to be fighting against.

So you are now saying that Christians do face trials just as non Christians do?

2. You said, "Victorywood would have you believe is your own making, instead of a gift from God and that it grows strong by hearing men like Victorywood talking nonsense instead of being tested." Here is another strawman. The Bible is clear that faith has its foundation on God's Word (Rom. 10:17; Eph. 2:13; Rom. 8:12-13, and multiple other Scriptures). Now, you may be partially right when you say that "victorywood" (has anyone ever heard of a piece of "wood" giving us "victory" ) does not believe that faith is some gift of God that you get supernaturally zapped with on a selective basis as taught within Calvinist circles. However "victorywood" (victoryword) believes that God has made faith available to all through the agency of His Word as the Bible clearly states.

Faith is also listed as a gift of the spirit 1 Cor

So Ed, it's a poor apologist that must build strawmen to knock down. I really don't think leaving the pastoral ministry and entering into the apologetics ministry is for you. I think you are better suited for "street ministry". Imagine all of the souls you can win as you sell those hotdogs out on the streets

They are only strawmen if you believe Christians have trials in their lives. And that would contradictory to the teaching of the WOF that say you only have trials if you lack faith, have sin or speak negative things into your life.

[branham1965]

That is very kind and decent of you Pastor.i love you sincerely as well.

I THINK ITS UNFAIR TO SAY THAT.I THINK REVED LIKES REVEREND DAKE.DR.KENYON NO.
AS FOR ME NEEDING ALOT OF PRAYER I CERTAINLY DO.MY FAMILY AND I WE REALLY DO.

Billy, believe it or not, I love you man. And have prayed for you on more than one occasion. Also, I like Ed. He keeps this forum from being boring and keeping us from being a "cumbayah" crowd. But to say that he likes Dake? What about Dake does he like? He has demonstrated his disagreement with Dake on nearly every doctrine Dake espouses. So, what is it about Dake does Ed like? Maybe you can explain it to me.

And I have no intentions of letting up on Ed. He is a strong and healthy 70 year old man. He should have no trouble pushing that hotdog cart

[branham1965]

that is an excellent exposition of that position.very well put.thats why you are a blue ribbon VIP man.

Intrestingly enough, James goes on later in his letter to talk about "taming the tongue". If you must have an old testament passage, what about "A man's stomach shall be satisfied from the fruit of his mouth; From the produce of his lips he shall be filled. Death and life are in the power of the tongue, And those who love it will eat its fruit." (Proverbs 18:20-21).

Another passage, this time from the New Testament..."So Jesus answered and said to them, 'Have faith in God. For assuredly, I say to you, whoever says to this mountain, 'Be removed and be cast into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart, but believes that those things he says will be done, he will have whatever he says. Therefore I say to you, whatever things you ask when you pray, believe that you receive them, and you will have them.'" (Mark 11:22-24)

I want you to notice the bolded parts in the above passages. Your confession, what you say, will dictate what you receive. Jesus taught it, Paul taught (Romans 10:8-10 anyone?), Hagin taught it, Dake taught it. Just because a select few want to teach something else, does not mean that what they are saying is correct. If you watch what ppl say, they themselves prove the above passages true. If you have someone who wants to talk about how sick they are, they will stay sick. If you have someone who wants to talk about how sick they get every year in the winter, then you can watch them get sick this year in the winter. If you have someone who talks about how broke they always are, that they never have the money to even pay their bills...watch them struggle all their lives to pay their bills. "A man's stomach shall be satisfied from the fruit of his mouth; from the produce of his lips he shall be filled. Death and life are in the power of the tongue, and those who love it will eat its fruit." What is coming out of your mouth determines what you eat, because Jesus said, "out of the abundance of the heart, the mouth speaks." If you don't like what your life is like, start speaking something different. Speak what God says about it, and who cares what unbelieving so-called ministers have to say about it. What does God say about it...that is all that should matter.

Now, to address the James passage quoted...James does not say to just lie there and take the whipping. Like I said, James goes on in chapter 3 to talk about taming the tongue. Sure, I agree that when bad things come, it is testing our faith. But what is faith? And how do you use that faith? Do we just lie down and take the beating? I don't believe so. I believe we stand back up and oppose the enemy, using that shield of faith to quench all those fiery darts of doubt and unbelief that he is shooting at our heads and hearts. We draw closer to God, and stand firm in his presence...and that snake has got to flee (run in stark terror).

Ever notice that a person will begin to sound like the ppl or person that they spend the most time with? If you spend your time with God, you will begin to sound like God, you will begin to talk like God. But if you spend time away from God, you will begin to speak like the world, and you will start to talk like the world. If you spend time with faithless so-called ministers, you will begin to sound like those same ministers...without faith, and dare I say it...without God and hope in this world.

Nobody said the life of faith is going to be a constant Sunday walk in the park. There is still a spiritual outlaw out there, and he is still walking about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour. But we are in Christ, and Christ is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. The enemy is "like" a lion, but Christ IS the Lion. And we are in Christ, and as Christ is, so are we (to be) in this world. Who do you want to be more like? The guy who is simply taking the whipping, or the One who grabbed the whip from the slavers hand and turns it on the Slavemaster, than told us to do the same thing through His Name?

You all can do what you want to...just as the Scripture says, "Choose for yourself whom you will serve, but as for me and my house, we will serve the Lord". But even more so than the servent, I am a son, given full right and privelige through Jesus to be in Christ and to receive the blessings of the New Covenant. For when I am weak, He is strong. And I may always be weak, but He will forever and always be strong. All my weaknesses are covered up by his strength. And through Him I overcome the impossible, and stand against the enemy. That is true covenant talk. But for me to utilize the power God has made available to me through the New Covenant, and to me by being in Christ...I must use my confession of faith, and not back down.

[branham1965]

How can one have a mans back and tell another who opposes that man good post.
of course complimenting this fellow was a sign of WEAKNESS to some.
if you try to be civil here its called double minded 101 things.



id ??????to get my late Pastor on here ONE time.

[victoryword]

So you are now saying that Christians do face trials just as non Christians do?

Hi Ed, I have never said anything to the effect that Christians do not face trials. However, I will be quick to say that trials and tribulations do NOT come from God but are the attacks of the enemy or the result of living in a fallen world. God is not to be blamed for trials. IN trials we are to claim God's promises.

Faith is also listed as a gift of the spirit 1 Cor

The funny thing is that when I read portions of John Calvin's Institutes he listed 1 Cor. 12 as one of his prooftexts to claim that God selectively zaps the elect with faith while withholding it from the non-elect. This is the same Calvin who taught within the same Institutes that the miraculous is not for today. It showed me that this great intellectual reformer did not know how to truly exegete God's Word. Every Pentecostal should know that the "Gift of Faith" listed in 1 Cor. 12 is a special faith that is different from the normal faith that everyone is expected to exercise. Otherwise, if God selectively zapped people with faith while withholding it from others then Jesus was unjust to commend some for having great faith while rebuking others for lack of it.

They are only strawmen if you believe Christians have trials in their lives. And that would contradictory to the teaching of the WOF that say you only have trials if you lack faith, have sin or speak negative things into your life.

This statement alone shows me that you know NOTHING about Word of Faith teaching. Ed, you have really and truly shown your ignorance here No WoF teacher has ever taught that Christians should not have trials. On the contrary, every one that I have listened to has stated that we are guaranteed to have them. Seriously Ed, are you ever concerned about how Jesus feels about you misrepresenting the beliefs of others? If you are going to fight against "false teachers" you really should find out what they actually teach first.

[victoryword]

Anyway, just a bunch of rambling by me, hope it helps you.

I thought it was an excellent ramble

[Justaned]

This statement alone shows me that you know NOTHING about Word of Faith teaching. Ed, you have really and truly shown your ignorance here No WoF teacher has ever taught that Christians should not have trials. On the contrary, every one that I have listened to has stated that we are guaranteed to have them. Seriously Ed, are you ever concerned about how Jesus feels about you misrepresenting the beliefs of others? If you are going to fight against "false teachers" you really should find out what they actually teach first.

That is a blatant lie OR proof you don't know what Word of Faith is. Word of Faith nothing exists until you speak it. Trials do not come to Word of Faith people if they keep their positive confession and never speak trials into existence. When problems occur they have the choice of speaking them into existence and thus making them a trial or denying them at which point they must go away.

Now tell me that is not what Word of Faith teaches. I have heard that spoken by every word of faith teacher, admittedly not in that many words but that is guise of what they taught. I have read in it Word of Faith books and I myself when I was deceived and teaching Word of Faith taught this idea exactly from Word of Faith textbooks.

[bibleman]

This statement alone shows me that you know NOTHING about Word of Faith teaching. Ed, you have really and truly shown your ignorance here No WoF teacher has ever taught that Christians should not have trials. On the contrary, every one that I have listened to has stated that we are guaranteed to have them. Seriously Ed, are you ever concerned about how Jesus feels about you misrepresenting the beliefs of others? If you are going to fight against "false teachers" you really should find out what they actually teach first.

That is a blatant lie OR proof you don't know what Word of Faith is. Word of Faith nothing exists until you speak it. Trials do not come to Word of Faith people if they keep their positive confession and never speak trials into existence. When problems occur they have the choice of speaking them into existence and thus making them a trial or denying them at which point they must go away.

Now tell me that is not what Word of Faith teaches. I have heard that spoken by every word of faith teacher, admittedly not in that many words but that is guise of what they taught. I have read in it Word of Faith books and I myself when I was deceived and teaching Word of Faith taught this idea exactly from Word of Faith textbooks.

Hi Ed,

Ed that is nuts, by your very comments you show that you know nothing about WOF teaching or doctrine. How you can say such laughable stuff and still type is beyond me.

Above you said: "Trials do not come to Word of Faith people if they keep their positive confession and never speak trials into existence."

I have never heard that taught in my over 30 years of being WOF!

Produce a quote from the WOF leaders that say such a thing? either from book and page number or sound clip on the internet.

[Justaned]

This statement alone shows me that you know NOTHING about Word of Faith teaching. Ed, you have really and truly shown your ignorance here No WoF teacher has ever taught that Christians should not have trials. On the contrary, every one that I have listened to has stated that we are guaranteed to have them. Seriously Ed, are you ever concerned about how Jesus feels about you misrepresenting the beliefs of others? If you are going to fight against "false teachers" you really should find out what they actually teach first.

That is a blatant lie OR proof you don't know what Word of Faith is. Word of Faith nothing exists until you speak it. Trials do not come to Word of Faith people if they keep their positive confession and never speak trials into existence. When problems occur they have the choice of speaking them into existence and thus making them a trial or denying them at which point they must go away.

Now tell me that is not what Word of Faith teaches. I have heard that spoken by every word of faith teacher, admittedly not in that many words but that is guise of what they taught. I have read in it Word of Faith books and I myself when I was deceived and teaching Word of Faith taught this idea exactly from Word of Faith textbooks.

Hi Ed,

Ed that is nuts, by your very comments you show that you know nothing about WOF teaching or doctrine. How you can say such laughable stuff and still type is beyond me.

Above you said: "Trials do not come to Word of Faith people if they keep their positive confession and never speak trials into existence."

I have never heard that taught in my over 30 years of being WOF!

Produce a quote from the WOF leaders that say such a thing? either from book and page number or sound clip on the internet.

Nuts??????? Perhaps it is you that are nuts claiming to be Word of Faith and not understanding it's primary teaching.
What do you think the WORD in Word of Faith means. It means your "words" of faith or doubt create the realities you live, experience and must endure in.
That is the metaphysical part of the Word of Faith teaching I so hate. I have seen people Word of Faith people get up and leave a church because in their words the pastor was teaching heresy. His teaching David's Psalm 34 in particular
Psalm 34:19 (NKJV)
19 Many are the afflictions of the righteous, But the LORD delivers him out of them all.

Along with James 1:2-3 (NKJV)
2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.

I have seen it I have experienced it, that is the exact teaching of the Word of Faith that I so hate because it is a false hood.

Every Every Every Word of Faith Teacher teaches this lie in some form or fashion or they aren't truly Word of Faith for that is the defining essence of the WORD of FAITH.

[victoryword]

That is a blatant lie OR proof you don't know what Word of Faith is. Word of Faith nothing exists until you speak it. Trials do not come to Word of Faith people if they keep their positive confession and never speak trials into existence. When problems occur they have the choice of speaking them into existence and thus making them a trial or denying them at which point they must go away.

Now tell me that is not what Word of Faith teaches. I have heard that spoken by every word of faith teacher, admittedly not in that many words but that is guise of what they taught. I have read in it Word of Faith books and I myself when I was deceived and teaching Word of Faith taught this idea exactly from Word of Faith textbooks.

It seems Ed that I indeed know what Word of Faith is and YOU are the one that actually doesn't know what it is. Allow me to prove it to you. Here are quotes from two of the most prominent leaders of the movement:

• If you think you're just going to float through life on flowery beds of ease, you've got another thought coming! God never promised you a life without trials. But He has promised you victory in the midst of the trials of life (John 16:33)! (Kenneth E. Hagin, Classic Sermons, p.16)
  
  Some people have the idea that if you live by faith, you can float through life with no problems at all. Forget about that. It will never happen this side of the rapture. (Kenneth Copeland, Let Not Your Heart Be Troubled, http://kcm.org/studycenter/articles/pro ... rheart.php (Last accessed: 22 December, 2004))

So Ed, I think you need to admit to the rest of this forum that you really do not know what you are talking about and then post a copy of your resignation letter from the pastoral ministry for all of us to read.