Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Does everything happen for a reason?

[bibleman]

Justined, is it fair to say that you believe God has determined many things including the main storyline of the Bible but has left the majority of the events of peoples' everyday life alone??

Personally, this is what I believe. I'd say it's a combo. God sets things up in your life where you are left to your free will to pick one of several paths.

Dolph
I think God has determined to let man decide for himself what course he would follow. However God also has a plan that God incorporates man's decisions into. God doesn't mandate those decisions but because God knows what they are God can then incoporate them into God's plan to accomplish what God's desires.

Hi Justaned,

Above you said: "...God also has a plan that God incorporates man's decisions into. God doesn't mandate those decisions but because God knows what they are God can then incorporate them into God's plan to accomplish what God's desires."

Based on what you have said God's Plan is contingent on what man decides as according to your statement: "because God knows what they are God can then incorporate them into God's plan to accomplish what God's desires."

Is this what you meant to say?

God's plan is not contingent, it simply incorporates man's decisions into it.

If God incorporates man's decisions into the HIS plan then the decisions of man have to take place BEFORE the plan - thus you have a God that is subject to man's plan.

[Justaned]

Ed, what about the main story lines of the Bible, don't you think that God nudged the players in the story of the Jews, for example and virtually wrote the script?? Was God wringing His hands over the Jews rebellion or did He expect it so that Jesus could die for the sins of the world?? Put another way, did He not write the greatest story ever told or did it all happen by chance?

There are certain predispositions, talents, aptitudes, genes in everyone's lives that are put there by the Great Architect. I believe this is how the Bible was written. It didn't happen by random chance. God stacked the deck.

Therefore , we have a combo of free-will and determinism.

Dolph
You forget God is omnipresent, God transcends time, God know our decisions because he can watch us making them thousands of years in advance of us making them.

[Justaned]

Justined, is it fair to say that you believe God has determined many things including the main storyline of the Bible but has left the majority of the events of peoples' everyday life alone??

Personally, this is what I believe. I'd say it's a combo. God sets things up in your life where you are left to your free will to pick one of several paths.

Dolph
I think God has determined to let man decide for himself what course he would follow. However God also has a plan that God incorporates man's decisions into. God doesn't mandate those decisions but because God knows what they are God can then incoporate them into God's plan to accomplish what God's desires.

Hi Justaned,

Above you said: "...God also has a plan that God incorporates man's decisions into. God doesn't mandate those decisions but because God knows what they are God can then incorporate them into God's plan to accomplish what God's desires."

Based on what you have said God's Plan is contingent on what man decides as according to your statement: "because God knows what they are God can then incorporate them into God's plan to accomplish what God's desires."

Is this what you meant to say?

God's plan is not contingent, it simply incorporates man's decisions into it.

If God incorporates man's decisions into the HIS plan then the decisions of man have to take place BEFORE the plan - thus you have a God that is subject to man's plan.

God isn't subject to man actions God is simply aware of them and thus able to incorporate them into God's plan.

[Justaned]

Ed, what about the main story lines of the Bible, don't you think that God nudged the players in the story of the Jews, for example and virtually wrote the script?? Was God wringing His hands over the Jews rebellion or did He expect it so that Jesus could die for the sins of the world?? Put another way, did He not write the greatest story ever told or did it all happen by chance?

There are certain predispositions, talents, aptitudes, genes in everyone's lives that are put there by the Great Architect. I believe this is how the Bible was written. It didn't happen by random chance. God stacked the deck.

Therefore , we have a combo of free-will and determinism.

Dolph
You forget God is omnipresent, God transcends time, God know our decisions because he can watch us making them thousands of years in advance of us making them.

If God knew the total future then why did He allow people to be born that He knew wouldn't be smart enough to accept salvation?? He's not a sadist!!!

If God didn't know the future how could God inspire the writing of the Revelations? Do you not think God could see the faces of the saints standing before him in Heaven? God's knows the very hair on our heads but doesn't recognize the saints standing before him in the vision God gave to John?

Does not God know the names written in the Lamb's book of Life when John was shown it? Did not God see the faces of those thrown into the Lake of Fire?
Or did John not see these things but just thought them?

Do we Judge God?

[bibleman]

Justined, is it fair to say that you believe God has determined many things including the main storyline of the Bible but has left the majority of the events of peoples' everyday life alone??

Personally, this is what I believe. I'd say it's a combo. God sets things up in your life where you are left to your free will to pick one of several paths.

Dolph
I think God has determined to let man decide for himself what course he would follow. However God also has a plan that God incorporates man's decisions into. God doesn't mandate those decisions but because God knows what they are God can then incoporate them into God's plan to accomplish what God's desires.

Hi Justaned,

Above you said: "...God also has a plan that God incorporates man's decisions into. God doesn't mandate those decisions but because God knows what they are God can then incorporate them into God's plan to accomplish what God's desires."

Based on what you have said God's Plan is contingent on what man decides as according to your statement: "because God knows what they are God can then incorporate them into God's plan to accomplish what God's desires."

Is this what you meant to say?

God's plan is not contingent, it simply incorporates man's decisions into it.

If God incorporates man's decisions into the HIS plan then the decisions of man have to take place BEFORE the plan - thus you have a God that is subject to man's plan.

God isn't subject to man actions God is simply aware of them and thus able to incorporate them into God's plan.

Hi Ed,

If God is aware and incorporate man's actions into HIS plan... then of course the actions of man had to already exist BEFORE the plan of God.

No way around it Ed.

Unless you have something that tells just how this happens that you ave not mentioned yet.

[Justaned]

Justined, is it fair to say that you believe God has determined many things including the main storyline of the Bible but has left the majority of the events of peoples' everyday life alone??

Personally, this is what I believe. I'd say it's a combo. God sets things up in your life where you are left to your free will to pick one of several paths.

Dolph
I think God has determined to let man decide for himself what course he would follow. However God also has a plan that God incorporates man's decisions into. God doesn't mandate those decisions but because God knows what they are God can then incoporate them into God's plan to accomplish what God's desires.

Hi Justaned,

Above you said: "...God also has a plan that God incorporates man's decisions into. God doesn't mandate those decisions but because God knows what they are God can then incorporate them into God's plan to accomplish what God's desires."

Based on what you have said God's Plan is contingent on what man decides as according to your statement: "because God knows what they are God can then incorporate them into God's plan to accomplish what God's desires."

Is this what you meant to say?

God's plan is not contingent, it simply incorporates man's decisions into it.

If God incorporates man's decisions into the HIS plan then the decisions of man have to take place BEFORE the plan - thus you have a God that is subject to man's plan.

God isn't subject to man actions God is simply aware of them and thus able to incorporate them into God's plan.

Hi Ed,

If God is aware and incorporate man's actions into HIS plan... then of course the actions of man had to already exist BEFORE the plan of God.

No way around it Ed.

Unless you have something that tells just how this happens that you ave not mentioned yet.

Which came first the chicken or the egg? We don't know.
What I do know is God is omnipresent past, present, future.
God's prophecies are 100% and unless God is lucky or puppetmasters them to happen God had to know what was going to happen.
God wrote the book of Revelations and unless we don't believe John when John said he was shown them, then John saw the future. If God can show John the future then God has to have seen it also.

There is going to be a war of Armeddagon God either has seen this, or is going to make it happen, if God is going to make it happen that this is just a bit puppet stage. If God saw it happen then God has to know the who fought in it, who died in it.

John saw the New Jerusalem, if he did so did God. To have it happen God either has to puppet master life to make it happen or sees the future and was able to show John. Or else is God is didn't show John the real Jerusalem only a
heavenlywood knock off that convinced John it was real. But that still makes us wonder how God could predict this in advance into the future.

[Justaned]

You can't reconcile a loving God with a God that allows children to grow up knowing they are doomed to eternal torture. Would you allow your children to walk to school if you new they were going to be kidnapped, raped and brutalized??

We don't have all the pieces of the puzzle. I expect there will be a general amnesty that won't be announced until after His return. Could you enjoy Heaven knowing your mother was being tortured day and night?? It's not impossible for God to change the rules or offer additional grace.

You are talking universalism, Dake was against universalism.
I think there is a lot that we don't know.
God said to trust Him. I do.
I have no idea who will and who won't be in heaven. It isn't my problem my problem is to trust God and serve Him as the servant I have been called to.

[Justaned]

You can't reconcile a loving God with a God that allows children to grow up knowing they are doomed to eternal torture. Would you allow your children to walk to school if you new they were going to be kidnapped, raped and brutalized??

We don't have all the pieces of the puzzle. I expect there will be a general amnesty that won't be announced until after His return. Could you enjoy Heaven knowing your mother was being tortured day and night?? It's not impossible for God to change the rules or offer additional grace.

You are talking universalism, Dake was against universalism.
I think there is a lot that we don't know.
God said to trust Him. I do.
I have no idea who will and who won't be in heaven. It isn't my problem my problem is to trust God and serve Him as the servant I have been called to.

Ed, I didn't say it was your problem. I'm simply asking you if you agree that the general Christian consensus is unlikely to occur but until God changes or modifies His doctrine of salvation we can't preach any other plan of salvation than the one we have.

Leon??

I realize you didn't say it was my problem.
What I'm trying to say is once we have our perfect bodies with perfect understanding and know a lot more than we do now I don't believe it will be problem. I think we will have perfect understanding and agree God is totally Just.

[Justaned]

You can't reconcile a loving God with a God that allows children to grow up knowing they are doomed to eternal torture. Would you allow your children to walk to school if you new they were going to be kidnapped, raped and brutalized??

We don't have all the pieces of the puzzle. I expect there will be a general amnesty that won't be announced until after His return. Could you enjoy Heaven knowing your mother was being tortured day and night?? It's not impossible for God to change the rules or offer additional grace.

You are talking universalism, Dake was against universalism.
I think there is a lot that we don't know.
God said to trust Him. I do.
I have no idea who will and who won't be in heaven. It isn't my problem my problem is to trust God and serve Him as the servant I have been called to.

Ed, I didn't say it was your problem. I'm simply asking you if you agree that the general Christian consensus is unlikely to occur but until God changes or modifies His doctrine of salvation we can't preach any other plan of salvation than the one we have.

Leon??

Ed, I'm asking you what you think now with the cards we have been dealt so far. Things can't unfold the way most Christians have been taught considering our God is Love.

I realize you didn't say it was my problem.
What I'm trying to say is once we have our perfect bodies with perfect understanding and know a lot more than we do now I don't believe it will be problem. I think we will have perfect understanding and agree God is totally Just.

dolph
Right now I have to stand on Scripture that says everyone whose name is not found in the Book of Life will be thrown into the lake of fire. I also believe God shows us love. How do I reconcile these two? I don't even try. Mine is not to judge God, mine is only to trust in Him and God has declared Himself JUST.
If God says he is Just, I believe it and one day I will understand it but right now all I can do is trust.

[Reuben]

Which came first the chicken or the egg? We don't know.

Hey I'm smarter than Ed!!! I know the answer to this