Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ The passage all liberals hate!

[Rocky]

I believe that is how God explained it to Abraham so that Abraham would understand and not be sidetracked with asking God how do you do that. I also believe God had to do it this way to show the world the perversion of Sodom so they could not come back and say how do we know what you are saying about Sodom is true. God left the people perversion of Sodom indict itself. And recorded it in scripture for eternity to understand God is holy and can not tolerate sin.

I have been reading this entire thread I was not going to get in on this but I have watched you reject every plain and simple scripture that everyone has given you, yet you still reject it. You seem to be adding to what the bible says, others seem to just take it for what it says. That's just my two cents

[Ironman]

I believe that is how God explained it to Abraham so that Abraham would understand and not be sidetracked with asking God how do you do that. I also believe God had to do it this way to show the world the perversion of Sodom so they could not come back and say how do we know what you are saying about Sodom is true. God left the people perversion of Sodom indict itself. And recorded it in scripture for eternity to understand God is holy and can not tolerate sin.

I have been reading this entire thread I was not going to get in on this but I have watched you reject every plain and simple scripture that everyone has given you, yet you still reject it. You seem to be adding to what the bible says, others seem to just take it for what it says. That's just my two cents

Hi Rocky. I posted this on page 4 while you were typing I think? Covers most of what this is about and yet there are still people who refuse to believe what God says about himself?


The Bible gives us many simple statements that limit God's knowledge. There would be no sense in them if we do not believe them literally.

God gets to know things concerning the free moral actions of men as others do (Gen. 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18:21; 22:12; 2 Chron. 16:9; Zech. 4:10; Job 12:22; 24:23; Ps. 7:9; 44:21; Ps. 139:1-6; Prov. 24:12; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 11:5; Rom. 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4).

God sends messengers throughout the Earth who report to Him of all they find on Earth that goes on (Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 2:4). God does not take care personally or every detail of His vast business in all the kingdoms in the entire universe. God agents help God and they are found in every part of the universe on missions for God. Certain angels are responsible to God for carrying out His will in infinite detail concerning the billions of suns, moons, planets and all free moral agents on them.

God Himself said of certain events that they did not even come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21).

As mentioned earlier, God did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen 6:5-7); that they would plan Babel (Gen.11:5-7); that Sodom would be so wicked (Gen. 18:21, 26, 28-32); That Abraham would actually proceed to offer his son Isaac (Gen. 22:12).

God did not know whether it would take one two or three signs to make Israel believe in Him (Ex. 4;1-12); or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him, or not (Deut. 8:2, 16).

God did not know that Israel would backslide as far as she did (Deut. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19)

God searches to find men whom He can bless (2 Chr.16:9). God discovers deep things (Job 12:22); tries the hearts and reins of men so that He may know them (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chron.28:9; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor. 2:10; Rev. 2:23, proving all men for the same reason (Ps. 17:3; 66:10; 81:7).

God eternal plan is known by Him from beginning to end and what He plans to bring to pass on Earth he has the power to do, but concerning the free actions of free moral agents He does not know from all eternity that they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. God does not know who will be saved or who will be lost. God has made His plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan will be blessed with the predestined blessings. Those who freely choose to wilfully rebel will be curded with the predestined punishments according to His plan. It is the PLAN that is known from beginning to end, not free moral agents individual conformity to Gods PLAN.

It is left up to each individual free moral agent to choose his own destiny. God wills all men to be saved but if men do not choose to be saved that is their destiny and responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22:17).

IF GOD KNEW BEFORE HAND WHO WOULD BE SAVED AND WHO WOULD NOT BE SAVED, THEN WHY WOULD GOD CREATE SINNERS? . . . TO BE PUNISHED ETERNALLY IN HELLFIRE? WHY NOT JUST CREATE THOSE WHO WOULDBE SAVED?

BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE ROBOTS, MUTONS AND NOT FREE MORAL AGENTS WHO LOVED GOD AND FREELY CHOSE TO BE SAVED! How easy was that? Even my grandchildren know this. Do as Dad and Grand-dad says and be rewarded, do the opposite and expect to be punished.

[macca]

I smell a faith destroying wolf , why am i not suprised

[Justaned]

I believe that is how God explained it to Abraham so that Abraham would understand and not be sidetracked with asking God how do you do that. I also believe God had to do it this way to show the world the perversion of Sodom so they could not come back and say how do we know what you are saying about Sodom is true. God left the people perversion of Sodom indict itself. And recorded it in scripture for eternity to understand God is holy and can not tolerate sin.

I have been reading this entire thread I was not going to get in on this but I have watched you reject every plain and simple scripture that everyone has given you, yet you still reject it. You seem to be adding to what the bible says, others seem to just take it for what it says. That's just my two cents

I haven't rejected anything. How about the scriptures both myself and Grandfather has supplied they seem to get dismissed with total abandon.
How about the core teaching of scripture about God being omnipresent and omniscient why can they be so easily dismissed.
How about the fact there are billions of people yet God says he knows the word while they are yet formed in the mouth.

Scripture says what it says. Yet in the passage we are talking about scripture never recorded that God ever does go into Sodom yet He destroyed.

Lastly why is everyone trying to diminish God's power yet when I claim that nothing is impossible with God I accused of ignoring scripture.

[Justaned]

I smell a faith destroying wolf , why am i not suprised

I agree anyone that says God can't or that God must is a faith destroying wolf. Scripture clearly says nothing is impossible with God.

[Justaned]

I believe that is how God explained it to Abraham so that Abraham would understand and not be sidetracked with asking God how do you do that. I also believe God had to do it this way to show the world the perversion of Sodom so they could not come back and say how do we know what you are saying about Sodom is true. God left the people perversion of Sodom indict itself. And recorded it in scripture for eternity to understand God is holy and can not tolerate sin.

I have been reading this entire thread I was not going to get in on this but I have watched you reject every plain and simple scripture that everyone has given you, yet you still reject it. You seem to be adding to what the bible says, others seem to just take it for what it says. That's just my two cents

Hi Rocky. I posted this on page 4 while you were typing I think? Covers most of what this is about and yet there are still people who refuse to believe what God says about himself?


The Bible gives us many simple statements that limit God's knowledge. There would be no sense in them if we do not believe them literally.

God gets to know things concerning the free moral actions of men as others do (Gen. 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18:21; 22:12; 2 Chron. 16:9; Zech. 4:10; Job 12:22; 24:23; Ps. 7:9; 44:21; Ps. 139:1-6; Prov. 24:12; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 11:5; Rom. 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4).

God sends messengers throughout the Earth who report to Him of all they find on Earth that goes on (Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 2:4). God does not take care personally or every detail of His vast business in all the kingdoms in the entire universe. God agents help God and they are found in every part of the universe on missions for God. Certain angels are responsible to God for carrying out His will in infinite detail concerning the billions of suns, moons, planets and all free moral agents on them.

God Himself said of certain events that they did not even come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21).

As mentioned earlier, God did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen 6:5-7); that they would plan Babel (Gen.11:5-7); that Sodom would be so wicked (Gen. 18:21, 26, 28-32); That Abraham would actually proceed to offer his son Isaac (Gen. 22:12).

God did not know whether it would take one two or three signs to make Israel believe in Him (Ex. 4;1-12); or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him, or not (Deut. 8:2, 16).

God did not know that Israel would backslide as far as she did (Deut. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19)

God searches to find men whom He can bless (2 Chr.16:9). God discovers deep things (Job 12:22); tries the hearts and reins of men so that He may know them (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chron.28:9; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor. 2:10; Rev. 2:23, proving all men for the same reason (Ps. 17:3; 66:10; 81:7).

God eternal plan is known by Him from beginning to end and what He plans to bring to pass on Earth he has the power to do, but concerning the free actions of free moral agents He does not know from all eternity that they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. God does not know who will be saved or who will be lost. God has made His plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan will be blessed with the predestined blessings. Those who freely choose to wilfully rebel will be curded with the predestined punishments according to His plan. It is the PLAN that is known from beginning to end, not free moral agents individual conformity to Gods PLAN.

It is left up to each individual free moral agent to choose his own destiny. God wills all men to be saved but if men do not choose to be saved that is their destiny and responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22:17).

IF GOD KNEW BEFORE HAND WHO WOULD BE SAVED AND WHO WOULD NOT BE SAVED, THEN WHY WOULD GOD CREATE SINNERS? . . . TO BE PUNISHED ETERNALLY IN HELLFIRE? WHY NOT JUST CREATE THOSE WHO WOULDBE SAVED?

BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE ROBOTS, MUTONS AND NOT FREE MORAL AGENTS WHO LOVED GOD AND FREELY CHOSE TO BE SAVED! How easy was that? Even my grandchildren know this. Do as Dad and Grand-dad says and be rewarded, do the opposite and expect to be punished.

In all these verses I read nothing that contradicts anything I have said thus far in this thread. Every verse is as true today and they were yesterday and as they were when first penned. However I read them believing God is God and that all things are possible with God and nothing impossible.

So I read them as I believe God meant them to be read as explanations of events written to the understanding of man.

Were they written to explain a situation or to list attributes of God? That is real question here.

There is absolutely no suggestion, implication or inference that these verses are to be used to define God's capabilities.

I think some read them and try to build a box to fit God in from them while in fact they were never intended as such.

God has already clearly defined His boundaries and none of these are any part of those definition.

Approach this subject with one thought "Nothing is impossible with God." Then try to build a box that you can fit God into.

And why is all of these discussions always end up with man having to be robots. Everything I said counters that thesis.
I have clearly agreed man has total free will. But what you seem to refuse to agree to is to say God is sovereign.

For some reason you want man to effect God and by definition an entity that can be effected by man can not be man's God. God is either a supreme being or He isn't. Why must God be limited?

[Rocky]

I believe that is how God explained it to Abraham so that Abraham would understand and not be sidetracked with asking God how do you do that. I also believe God had to do it this way to show the world the perversion of Sodom so they could not come back and say how do we know what you are saying about Sodom is true. God left the people perversion of Sodom indict itself. And recorded it in scripture for eternity to understand God is holy and can not tolerate sin.

I have been reading this entire thread I was not going to get in on this but I have watched you reject every plain and simple scripture that everyone has given you, yet you still reject it. You seem to be adding to what the bible says, others seem to just take it for what it says. That's just my two cents

Hi Rocky. I posted this on page 4 while you were typing I think? Covers most of what this is about and yet there are still people who refuse to believe what God says about himself?


The Bible gives us many simple statements that limit God's knowledge. There would be no sense in them if we do not believe them literally.

God gets to know things concerning the free moral actions of men as others do (Gen. 6:5-7; 11:5-7; 18:21; 22:12; 2 Chron. 16:9; Zech. 4:10; Job 12:22; 24:23; Ps. 7:9; 44:21; Ps. 139:1-6; Prov. 24:12; Jer. 17:10; Ezek. 11:5; Rom. 8:27; 1 Thess. 2:4).

God sends messengers throughout the Earth who report to Him of all they find on Earth that goes on (Dan. 10:13-21; 11:1; 12:1; Zech. 1:7-11; 6:1-8; Matt. 18:10-11; Heb. 2:4). God does not take care personally or every detail of His vast business in all the kingdoms in the entire universe. God agents help God and they are found in every part of the universe on missions for God. Certain angels are responsible to God for carrying out His will in infinite detail concerning the billions of suns, moons, planets and all free moral agents on them.

God Himself said of certain events that they did not even come into His mind (Jer. 19:5; 32:35; 44:21).

As mentioned earlier, God did not know beforehand that men would become so wicked (Gen 6:5-7); that they would plan Babel (Gen.11:5-7); that Sodom would be so wicked (Gen. 18:21, 26, 28-32); That Abraham would actually proceed to offer his son Isaac (Gen. 22:12).

God did not know whether it would take one two or three signs to make Israel believe in Him (Ex. 4;1-12); or whether testing Israel would cause them to obey Him, or not (Deut. 8:2, 16).

God did not know that Israel would backslide as far as she did (Deut. 32:19-29; Isa. 59:15-19)

God searches to find men whom He can bless (2 Chr.16:9). God discovers deep things (Job 12:22); tries the hearts and reins of men so that He may know them (Ps. 7:9; 44:21; 139:1-6, 23-24; Jer. 17:10; 1 Chron.28:9; Rom. 8:27; 1 Cor. 2:10; Rev. 2:23, proving all men for the same reason (Ps. 17:3; 66:10; 81:7).

God eternal plan is known by Him from beginning to end and what He plans to bring to pass on Earth he has the power to do, but concerning the free actions of free moral agents He does not know from all eternity that they will do before they are in existence and are here to have a part in His plan. God does not know who will be saved or who will be lost. God has made His plan for all to be saved alike and all who conform to His plan will be blessed with the predestined blessings. Those who freely choose to wilfully rebel will be curded with the predestined punishments according to His plan. It is the PLAN that is known from beginning to end, not free moral agents individual conformity to Gods PLAN.

It is left up to each individual free moral agent to choose his own destiny. God wills all men to be saved but if men do not choose to be saved that is their destiny and responsibility (1 Tim. 2:4; 2 Peter 3:9; John 3:16; Rev. 22:17).

IF GOD KNEW BEFORE HAND WHO WOULD BE SAVED AND WHO WOULD NOT BE SAVED, THEN WHY WOULD GOD CREATE SINNERS? . . . TO BE PUNISHED ETERNALLY IN HELLFIRE? WHY NOT JUST CREATE THOSE WHO WOULDBE SAVED?

BECAUSE THEY WOULD BE ROBOTS, MUTONS AND NOT FREE MORAL AGENTS WHO LOVED GOD AND FREELY CHOSE TO BE SAVED! How easy was that? Even my grandchildren know this. Do as Dad and Grand-dad says and be rewarded, do the opposite and expect to be punished.

That is some very good teaching.

[Rocky]

I believe that is how God explained it to Abraham so that Abraham would understand and not be sidetracked with asking God how do you do that. I also believe God had to do it this way to show the world the perversion of Sodom so they could not come back and say how do we know what you are saying about Sodom is true. God left the people perversion of Sodom indict itself. And recorded it in scripture for eternity to understand God is holy and can not tolerate sin.

I have been reading this entire thread I was not going to get in on this but I have watched you reject every plain and simple scripture that everyone has given you, yet you still reject it. You seem to be adding to what the bible says, others seem to just take it for what it says. That's just my two cents

I haven't rejected anything. How about the scriptures both myself and Grandfather has supplied they seem to get dismissed with total abandon.
How about the core teaching of scripture about God being omnipresent and omniscient why can they be so easily dismissed.
How about the fact there are billions of people yet God says he knows the word while they are yet formed in the mouth.

Scripture says what it says. Yet in the passage we are talking about scripture never recorded that God ever does go into Sodom yet He destroyed.

Lastly why is everyone trying to diminish God's power yet when I claim that nothing is impossible with God I accused of ignoring scripture.

Ed thank you for replying. I think what you and Grandfather have giving is valid, But what also is shown in scripture is that God has chose at times to limit himself of foreknowledge to adhere to his plan of free moral agency and to allowed mans free will to be tested, the bible is just as clear on that as the bible is clear on the points you brought up. Does God have the ability to know everything? Yes, but in the bible it also shows him limiting himself. Maybe there is a balance here that everyone is missing. Ed to me and I may be wrong brother, but the way you explain it makes God playing some sort of sick game with mankind if he knows every thing we are going to do before we do it. like when he tests man's faithfulness, if he already knows and still allows and lets us be tested and to face calamity for no reason then wouldn't that be being a sadist? Now I know you will probably say it is to make us stronger or its for us, well all I have to say about that is, I love my sons but I am not going to bring calamity on them just to make them strong unless I am some sick puppy and into sadomasochism.

[Ironman]

Hi Rocky.

Its no different to God testing Adam and Eve. God wanted to know if they would remain faithful to Him and obey Him for ever and live life according to His will, without being forced to, before He granted the eternal life by allowing them to eat of the tree of life!

Even Lucifer and the angels, it seems was not tested and look what happened there with him and the angels who followed him?

God did not want man, created in His image and likeness to end up like the pre-Adamites.

God loves His creation and He loves the fact that people choose to love Him, not be created robots, loving Him because they were created to love Him regardless?? God does not want to know what I decide to do until I freely decide what I intend to do, and what I then do, after freely deciding to do it. God loves the fact that we FREELY HAVE CHOOSEN to love Him, to believe in Him, and to believe in and accept the fact that He sent His beloved Son to pay our death penalty sins.

That's my simple way of seeing it?

[Rocky]

Hi Rocky.

Its no different to God testing Adam and Eve. God wanted to know if they would remain faithful to Him and obey Him for ever and live life according to His will, without being forced to, before He granted the eternal life by allowing them to eat of the tree of life!

Even Lucifer and the angels, it seems was not tested and look what happened there with him and the angels who followed him?

God did not want man, created in His image and likeness to end up like the pre-Adamites.

God loves His creation and He loves the fact that people choose to love Him, not be created robots, loving Him because they were created to love Him regardless?? God does not want to know what I decide to do until I freely decide what I intend to do, and what I then do, after freely deciding to do it. God loves the fact that we FREELY HAVE CHOOSEN to love Him, to believe in Him, and to believe in and accept the fact that He sent His beloved Son to pay our death penalty sins.

That's my simple way of seeing it?

That's the way I see it as well. God had to test the free will, before he was going to allow man to live forever, but my point is I believe God did not know that Adam and Eve were going to fall. Could have he known? I am sure, He is God. But, I believe God chose not to because of his plan of free will, and free moral agency, to believe that God knew the outcome is believing that the fall was fate and it was going to happen regardless of testing hence the free will is done away with. So why test? The answer is what we find in Abraham's testing, when God said "now I know" God chose to find out thorough his actions rather then foreknowledge.. I believe Dake has flawless teaching on this and he is 100% right.