Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Finis Dake on Positive Confession

[Justaned]

then that should work in every single case right?????

DOES IT???? DONT ANSWER.YOU KNOW IT DOESNT.

In teaching how our words can assist in the certainty of answered prayer, Finis Dake wrote the following:

• One can say just as easily, "I can, I will, I do believe that God hears me and answers my prayer" as to say, "It is hard to believe, I don't know whether I can or not, I hope God hears me and answers prayer." One can form right words and cause them to come out of his mouth just as he can tell a lie, and if he is that kind of person, it is infinitely easier to tell the truth than a lie. All statements of unbelief and all doubts and unbelief as to whether God answers prayer or not are of the devil, and anyone who gives in to any of these ideas is co-operating with the devil. He is making God a liar and is hindering God from answering prayer for him. God will not on any occasion or in any one case transgress His law of faith and work contrary to faith. (Dake, GPFM, p. 281)

Dake firmly believe that God will bless or withhold His blessing based on one's positive or negative confession. Therefore, we are to give verbal expression to our faith, otherwise known as "making a positive confession" based on God's promises. Many have criticized this truth, including some who claim to be readers of Dake, yet Finis Dake taught this here and other places.

No it doesn't Billy for exactly this reason.
James 1:2-4 (NKJV)
2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.
4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.

Justpained

You really MUST stop misquoting Scripture. It's embarrassing (for you of course, not me )

James 1
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Alright Ed, since you should be leaving the pastorate soon anyway and venturing into the exciting world of franks (please learn to say, "would you like mustard with that?" ) I will explain it to you. Of course if you should repent after I explain this to you and promise to start teaching the insight I am about to give you, we'll recommend that you put off this new, uh.... "street ministry" for a couple of more years.

Observe how Billy has stated that Rev. Dake's teaching on the power of confession, which Dake based clearly on God's Word, "does not always work in every single case". Then you agreed with him and used as your "prooftext" James 1:1-4 which is talking about trials. The implication you are making here is that if faith confession was Biblical truth (which it is, even if a person does not recognize this truth) then they should never encounter trials. Chris has responded to your implication already so I will not go into a lot of rebuttal here. Let us just say that Dake nor anyone else has never taught that you would not experience trials. On the contrary, you MUST expect trials and make your confession of faith in the midst of them.

Now, while trying to "prooftext" against Dake's teaching with the passage on trials, you stopped short of a wonderful passage that teaches that FAITH ALWAYS WORKS AND PRAYER IS GUARANTEED TO BE ANSWERED IF ONE DOES NOT DOUBT. Observe again:

• James 1
  5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
  6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
  7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
  8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

The reason it "does not work all of the time" as Billy stated and as you affirmed him, is only due to people doubting the Word of God. If you "waver" then the Word doesn't work. It's that simple. Hence why I was a little surprised that a long-time pastor such as yourself could not even guess at what I was getting at even when I bolded part of the passage.

Now, about this new business venture you'll be undertaking....

Whoa! You said I was out of context
How does James 1:5-8 make my quoting of James 1:2-4 (NKJV)
2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.
4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.
How is that Out of context in light of the question asked?

Let us look at the whole passage
I will quote it first in KJV so you don't accuse me of pulling anything.

James 1:1-8 (KJV)
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.
2 My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations;
3 Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience.
4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.
7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.
8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

Now let me quote it in NKJV so more will better understand
James 1:1-8 (NKJV)
1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
2 My brethren, count it all joy when you fall into various trials,
3 knowing that the testing of your faith produces patience.
4 But let patience have its perfect work, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking nothing.
5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him.
6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.
7 For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord;
8 he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.

This passage clearly says when our faith is tested it is to increase our patience or endurance. A runner does not get endurance by talking about it, he must go and run and run and each time he does his endurance grows stronger and stronger. Likewise faith which is given to us by the Lord must be tested, so that it grows. When David approached Goliath he did not say I will overcome you by the faith that brother so and so said I had. No! He said I have faced the wolf, the bear and the lion and since God is with me I can face you. Nor does this say we won't be tested no matter how much faith we have.

Then it says if you want wisdom ask God for and God will give it to you. But you can't ask doubting because that shows you are unstable in all your ways and you shouldn't expect God to give you anything (wisdom). If you are going to put your faith in God put it in God. If you put you faith in your faith, remember faith is a gift from God not something we acquire on our own, you are double minded and God will not give you anything.

Note also this passage is talking about obtaining wisdom not anything else as you want to apply it to. Although it is by the exercise of our faith that we please God. When we simply trust God and nothing else especially our ability in some form or fashion God is pleased and He is a rewarder of our faith.

[Justaned]

So watchman are we just suppose to stand by and not ever say anything when one perverts the scriptures and claim outlandish things and even contradict every thing that Dake taught and wrote? This seems like a very self righteous and smug reply.

May those who have transgressed here against God- The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, and God's Holy Word, and continue to do so- may they not prosper in any way, and may their lies and platitudes fall upon deaf ears. May they know no rest- spirit, soul, mind, nor body, until they come before God, to reconcile with Him... Amen, Amen, and Amen..

So know you are trying to use prayer like witchcraft to curse people on here. Perhaps you should point that high powered self righteousness at your self brother. I have never seen anyone try to pray a curse on someone like this, I mean wow!!

Rocky

I have seen it before and I only LAUGH when it happens. Years of debates with high and mighty heresy hunters have hardened me to their curse. Besides, I stand on God's promises:

• No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord. (Isa. 54:17)
  
  And Balak said unto him, Come, I pray thee, with me unto another place, from whence thou mayest see them: thou shalt see but the utmost part of them, and shalt not see them all: and curse me them from thence. And he brought him into the field of Zophim, to the top of Pisgah, and built seven altars, and offered a bullock and a ram on every altar. And he said unto Balak, Stand here by thy burnt offering, while I meet the Lord yonder. And the Lord met Balaam, and put a word in his mouth, and said, Go again unto Balak, and say thus. And when he came to him, behold, he stood by his burnt offering, and the princes of Moab with him. And Balak said unto him, What hath the Lord spoken? And he took up his parable, and said, Rise up, Balak, and hear; hearken unto me, thou son of Zippor: God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it. (Num. 23:13-20)

See, this is the wonderful thing about believing God's Word over the message of doubt espoused by some of these guys. I not only know my authority in Christ Jesus, but I can exercise that authority when someone tries to curse me. I cannot be cursed unless I let myself be. Otherwise, every tongues that rises against me in judgement, I have the authority to condemn.

I do not see a message of doubt in anything Watchman2013 or myself has said. In fact both of us are saying you my trust God. What I see is Watchman2013 and myself fighting the false teaching that if you have enough faith and all you will never have your faith tested. That is patently untrue. Every disciple, every member of the early church, every major church father and every true Christian today has trials that test their faith.

Not to destroy their faith but to build it stronger and stronger. Just as David's faith was built as a shepherd boy. He faced the wolf, the bear and the lion and God let him prevail. So that when he stood before Goliath it wasn't with untested faith but faith that let him more in confidence.

Victorywood would have you believe is your own making, instead of a gift from God and that it grows strong by hearing men like Victorywood talking nonsense instead of being tested. And we all know testing is never fun but it is needed.

[victoryword]

This passage clearly says when our faith is tested it is to increase our patience or endurance. A runner does not get endurance by talking about it, he must go and run and run and each time he does his endurance grows stronger and stronger. Likewise faith which is given to us by the Lord must be tested, so that it grows. When David approached Goliath he did not say I will overcome you by the faith that brother so and so said I had. No! He said I have faced the wolf, the bear and the lion and since God is with me I can face you. Nor does this say we won't be tested no matter how much faith we have.

Then it says if you want wisdom ask God for and God will give it to you. But you can't ask doubting because that shows you are unstable in all your ways and you shouldn't expect God to give you anything (wisdom). If you are going to put your faith in God put it in God. If you put you faith in your faith, remember faith is a gift from God not something we acquire on our own, you are double minded and God will not give you anything.

Note also this passage is talking about obtaining wisdom not anything else as you want to apply it to. Although it is by the exercise of our faith that we please God. When we simply trust God and nothing else especially our ability in some form or fashion God is pleased and He is a rewarder of our faith.

*SIGH*

Ed, you poor soul. James 1 is a principle that is not only applicable to wisdom, but to EVERYTHING. Compare:

• Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. (Matt. 21:21-22)
  
  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. (James 1:5-6)

You see Ed, Jesus laid out the principles of prayer and faith years before His half brother James did. James, by the inspiration of God, took Jesus' teachings and applied it specifically to wisdom. He also took this same teaching and applied it to divine healing (James 5:14-16). Even worse is whether you quote James 1 "in context" or "out of context" you have not proven nor can you ever prove that Dake's teaching on faith confession does not work. On the contrary, James makes it plain that it does work.

If you spew out of your mouth the opposite of what God has stated in His Word such as, "Well, I'm not sure if God will give me wisdom in this trial but if its His sovereign will, He might" then you have expressed unbelief and let not the one who made the expression think that he shall receive anything of the Lord.

[Rocky]

So watchman are we just suppose to stand by and not ever say anything when one perverts the scriptures and claim outlandish things and even contradict every thing that Dake taught and wrote? This seems like a very self righteous and smug reply.

May those who have transgressed here against God- The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, and God's Holy Word, and continue to do so- may they not prosper in any way, and may their lies and platitudes fall upon deaf ears. May they know no rest- spirit, soul, mind, nor body, until they come before God, to reconcile with Him... Amen, Amen, and Amen..

So know you are trying to use prayer like witchcraft to curse people on here. Perhaps you should point that high powered self righteousness at your self brother. I have never seen anyone try to pray a curse on someone like this, I mean wow!!

Rocky

I have seen it before and I only LAUGH when it happens. Years of debates with high and mighty heresy hunters have hardened me to their curse. Besides, I stand on God's promises:

• No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord. (Isa. 54:17)
  
  And Balak said unto him, Come, I pray thee, with me unto another place, from whence thou mayest see them: thou shalt see but the utmost part of them, and shalt not see them all: and curse me them from thence. And he brought him into the field of Zophim, to the top of Pisgah, and built seven altars, and offered a bullock and a ram on every altar. And he said unto Balak, Stand here by thy burnt offering, while I meet the Lord yonder. And the Lord met Balaam, and put a word in his mouth, and said, Go again unto Balak, and say thus. And when he came to him, behold, he stood by his burnt offering, and the princes of Moab with him. And Balak said unto him, What hath the Lord spoken? And he took up his parable, and said, Rise up, Balak, and hear; hearken unto me, thou son of Zippor: God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it. (Num. 23:13-20)

See, this is the wonderful thing about believing God's Word over the message of doubt espoused by some of these guys. I not only know my authority in Christ Jesus, but I can exercise that authority when someone tries to curse me. I cannot be cursed unless I let myself be. Otherwise, every tongues that rises against me in judgement, I have the authority to condemn.

I do not see a message of doubt in anything Watchman2013 or myself has said. In fact both of us are saying you my trust God. What I see is Watchman2013 and myself fighting the false teaching that if you have enough faith and all you will never have your faith tested. That is patently untrue. Every disciple, every member of the early church, every major church father and every true Christian today has trials that test their faith.

Not to destroy their faith but to build it stronger and stronger. Just as David's faith was built as a shepherd boy. He faced the wolf, the bear and the lion and God let him prevail. So that when he stood before Goliath it wasn't with untested faith but faith that let him more in confidence.

Victorywood would have you believe is your own making, instead of a gift from God and that it grows strong by hearing men like Victorywood talking nonsense instead of being tested. And we all know testing is never fun but it is needed.

Ed, not one person said that faith wont be tested, and no one is denying trials. God does allow the free will to be tested. As born again believers we are just claiming faith, victory and authority in the midst of trials. .. And so Ed, do you believe in praying curses on people like Watch guy2013 did?or what ever his name is

[victoryword]

I do not see a message of doubt in anything Watchman2013 or myself has said. In fact both of us are saying you my trust God. What I see is Watchman2013 and myself fighting the false teaching that if you have enough faith and all you will never have your faith tested. That is patently untrue. Every disciple, every member of the early church, every major church father and every true Christian today has trials that test their faith.

Not to destroy their faith but to build it stronger and stronger. Just as David's faith was built as a shepherd boy. He faced the wolf, the bear and the lion and God let him prevail. So that when he stood before Goliath it wasn't with untested faith but faith that let him more in confidence.

Victorywood would have you believe is your own making, instead of a gift from God and that it grows strong by hearing men like Victorywood talking nonsense instead of being tested. And we all know testing is never fun but it is needed.

Ed

First, I did not really read Watchman's post, and I did not read it intentionally. I was responding only to Rocky and making a reference to all proclamations of doubt and unbelief and the subsequent cursing of one's "enemies" when a debate gets a little heated. You may not agree with my theology of faith (which is based on God's Word) but you really shouldn't misrepresent it or claim that I believe something that I don't. You see, that is typical heresy hunting stratagem born in the school of Hank Hanegraaff and John MacArthur.

But Ed, no need for an apology. Just give me a free hotdog. Have mine prepared with ketchup, mustard and relish. YUM!! My mouth is watering just talking about

[Justaned]

This passage clearly says when our faith is tested it is to increase our patience or endurance. A runner does not get endurance by talking about it, he must go and run and run and each time he does his endurance grows stronger and stronger. Likewise faith which is given to us by the Lord must be tested, so that it grows. When David approached Goliath he did not say I will overcome you by the faith that brother so and so said I had. No! He said I have faced the wolf, the bear and the lion and since God is with me I can face you. Nor does this say we won't be tested no matter how much faith we have.

Then it says if you want wisdom ask God for and God will give it to you. But you can't ask doubting because that shows you are unstable in all your ways and you shouldn't expect God to give you anything (wisdom). If you are going to put your faith in God put it in God. If you put you faith in your faith, remember faith is a gift from God not something we acquire on our own, you are double minded and God will not give you anything.

Note also this passage is talking about obtaining wisdom not anything else as you want to apply it to. Although it is by the exercise of our faith that we please God. When we simply trust God and nothing else especially our ability in some form or fashion God is pleased and He is a rewarder of our faith.

*SIGH*

Ed, you poor soul. James 1 is a principle that is not only applicable to wisdom, but to EVERYTHING. Compare:

• Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done. And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive. (Matt. 21:21-22)
  
  If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed. For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord. (James 1:5-6)

You see Ed, Jesus laid out the principles of prayer and faith years before His half brother James did. James, by the inspiration of God, took Jesus' teachings and applied it specifically to wisdom. He also took this same teaching and applied it to divine healing (James 5:14-16). Even worse is whether you quote James 1 "in context" or "out of context" you have not proven nor can you ever prove that Dake's teaching on faith confession does not work. On the contrary, James makes it plain that it does work.

If you spew out of your mouth the opposite of what God has stated in His Word such as, "Well, I'm not sure if God will give me wisdom in this trial but if its His sovereign will, He might" then you have expressed unbelief and let not the one who made the expression think that he shall receive anything of the Lord.

If you read my response to Billy I was not disputing what Dake said I was answering Billy's question why it doesn't work all the time. James passage answers that question in my opinion and was not cited out of context. James said trials will come into our lives, Jesus said the same thing, scripture proves that each disciple experienced trials in their life, they all died horrible and nasty deaths. The early church faced trials, we face trials today. And James tells us when we do we should rejoice because we know it is testing our faith and build patience and endurance in us.

Now if that flies in the face of your theology let me say it is because you have a false theology.

[Justaned]

So watchman are we just suppose to stand by and not ever say anything when one perverts the scriptures and claim outlandish things and even contradict every thing that Dake taught and wrote? This seems like a very self righteous and smug reply.

May those who have transgressed here against God- The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit, and God's Holy Word, and continue to do so- may they not prosper in any way, and may their lies and platitudes fall upon deaf ears. May they know no rest- spirit, soul, mind, nor body, until they come before God, to reconcile with Him... Amen, Amen, and Amen..

So know you are trying to use prayer like witchcraft to curse people on here. Perhaps you should point that high powered self righteousness at your self brother. I have never seen anyone try to pray a curse on someone like this, I mean wow!!

Rocky

I have seen it before and I only LAUGH when it happens. Years of debates with high and mighty heresy hunters have hardened me to their curse. Besides, I stand on God's promises:

• No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord, and their righteousness is of me, saith the Lord. (Isa. 54:17)
  
  And Balak said unto him, Come, I pray thee, with me unto another place, from whence thou mayest see them: thou shalt see but the utmost part of them, and shalt not see them all: and curse me them from thence. And he brought him into the field of Zophim, to the top of Pisgah, and built seven altars, and offered a bullock and a ram on every altar. And he said unto Balak, Stand here by thy burnt offering, while I meet the Lord yonder. And the Lord met Balaam, and put a word in his mouth, and said, Go again unto Balak, and say thus. And when he came to him, behold, he stood by his burnt offering, and the princes of Moab with him. And Balak said unto him, What hath the Lord spoken? And he took up his parable, and said, Rise up, Balak, and hear; hearken unto me, thou son of Zippor: God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good? Behold, I have received commandment to bless: and he hath blessed; and I cannot reverse it. (Num. 23:13-20)

See, this is the wonderful thing about believing God's Word over the message of doubt espoused by some of these guys. I not only know my authority in Christ Jesus, but I can exercise that authority when someone tries to curse me. I cannot be cursed unless I let myself be. Otherwise, every tongues that rises against me in judgement, I have the authority to condemn.

I do not see a message of doubt in anything Watchman2013 or myself has said. In fact both of us are saying you my trust God. What I see is Watchman2013 and myself fighting the false teaching that if you have enough faith and all you will never have your faith tested. That is patently untrue. Every disciple, every member of the early church, every major church father and every true Christian today has trials that test their faith.

Not to destroy their faith but to build it stronger and stronger. Just as David's faith was built as a shepherd boy. He faced the wolf, the bear and the lion and God let him prevail. So that when he stood before Goliath it wasn't with untested faith but faith that let him more in confidence.

Victorywood would have you believe is your own making, instead of a gift from God and that it grows strong by hearing men like Victorywood talking nonsense instead of being tested. And we all know testing is never fun but it is needed.

Ed, not one person said that faith wont be tested, and no one is denying trials. God does allow the free will to be tested. As born again believers we are just claiming faith, victory and authority in the midst of trials. .. And so Ed, do you believe in praying curses on people like Watch guy2013 did?or what ever his name is

Not unless God told me too. Let me say it that bothers you then I would inspect my spirit real quick and if there is something there that shouldn't be there I would put it out. Fight the good fight and get rid of it Paul would say.
Watchman2013 prayer did not effect me because I knew I was not guilty of what he was speaking about.

[Justaned]

I do not see a message of doubt in anything Watchman2013 or myself has said. In fact both of us are saying you my trust God. What I see is Watchman2013 and myself fighting the false teaching that if you have enough faith and all you will never have your faith tested. That is patently untrue. Every disciple, every member of the early church, every major church father and every true Christian today has trials that test their faith.

Not to destroy their faith but to build it stronger and stronger. Just as David's faith was built as a shepherd boy. He faced the wolf, the bear and the lion and God let him prevail. So that when he stood before Goliath it wasn't with untested faith but faith that let him more in confidence.

Victorywood would have you believe is your own making, instead of a gift from God and that it grows strong by hearing men like Victorywood talking nonsense instead of being tested. And we all know testing is never fun but it is needed.

Ed

First, I did not really read Watchman's post, and I did not read it intentionally. I was responding only to Rocky and making a reference to all proclamations of doubt and unbelief and the subsequent cursing of one's "enemies" when a debate gets a little heated. You may not agree with my theology of faith (which is based on God's Word) but you really shouldn't misrepresent it or claim that I believe something that I don't. You see, that is typical heresy hunting stratagem born in the school of Hank Hanegraaff and John MacArthur.

But Ed, no need for an apology. Just give me a free hotdog. Have mine prepared with ketchup, mustard and relish. YUM!! My mouth is watering just talking about

I don't think I have misrepresented your theology in fact I think I nailed it when I exposed it as being false. You either trust in God or you trust in your faith.
I trust in God and I believe from what you have said you trust in your faith. That you have enough faith to make God indentured to you. I say that is a falsehood. Scripture clearly says God is in no man's debt.

[victoryword]

I do not see a message of doubt in anything Watchman2013 or myself has said. In fact both of us are saying you my trust God. What I see is Watchman2013 and myself fighting the false teaching that if you have enough faith and all you will never have your faith tested. That is patently untrue. Every disciple, every member of the early church, every major church father and every true Christian today has trials that test their faith.

Not to destroy their faith but to build it stronger and stronger. Just as David's faith was built as a shepherd boy. He faced the wolf, the bear and the lion and God let him prevail. So that when he stood before Goliath it wasn't with untested faith but faith that let him more in confidence.

Victorywood would have you believe is your own making, instead of a gift from God and that it grows strong by hearing men like Victorywood talking nonsense instead of being tested. And we all know testing is never fun but it is needed.

Ed

First, I did not really read Watchman's post, and I did not read it intentionally. I was responding only to Rocky and making a reference to all proclamations of doubt and unbelief and the subsequent cursing of one's "enemies" when a debate gets a little heated. You may not agree with my theology of faith (which is based on God's Word) but you really shouldn't misrepresent it or claim that I believe something that I don't. You see, that is typical heresy hunting stratagem born in the school of Hank Hanegraaff and John MacArthur.

But Ed, no need for an apology. Just give me a free hotdog. Have mine prepared with ketchup, mustard and relish. YUM!! My mouth is watering just talking about

I don't think I have misrepresented your theology in fact I think I nailed it when I exposed it as being false. You either trust in God or you trust in your faith.
I trust in God and I believe from what you have said you trust in your faith. That you have enough faith to make God indentured to you. I say that is a falsehood. Scripture clearly says God is in no man's debt.

Alright Ed

Let me show you this strawman you built so that you can stop beating your chest for having "exposed" me. Now, by the numbers:

1. You claim that you and W-2013 are fighting the false teaching that if you have enough faith and all you will never have your faith tested. The only problem is that I nor anyone else has taught that. So this is a strawman Ed. On the contrary I and others have taught the opposite of what you and W-2013 claim to be fighting against.

2. You said, "Victorywood would have you believe is your own making, instead of a gift from God and that it grows strong by hearing men like Victorywood talking nonsense instead of being tested." Here is another strawman. The Bible is clear that faith has its foundation on God's Word (Rom. 10:17; Eph. 2:13; Rom. 8:12-13, and multiple other Scriptures). Now, you may be partially right when you say that "victorywood" (has anyone ever heard of a piece of "wood" giving us "victory" ) does not believe that faith is some gift of God that you get supernaturally zapped with on a selective basis as taught within Calvinist circles. However "victorywood" (victoryword) believes that God has made faith available to all through the agency of His Word as the Bible clearly states.

So Ed, it's a poor apologist that must build strawmen to knock down. I really don't think leaving the pastoral ministry and entering into the apologetics ministry is for you. I think you are better suited for "street ministry". Imagine all of the souls you can win as you sell those hotdogs out on the streets

[Justaned]

I do not see a message of doubt in anything Watchman2013 or myself has said. In fact both of us are saying you my trust God. What I see is Watchman2013 and myself fighting the false teaching that if you have enough faith and all you will never have your faith tested. That is patently untrue. Every disciple, every member of the early church, every major church father and every true Christian today has trials that test their faith.

Not to destroy their faith but to build it stronger and stronger. Just as David's faith was built as a shepherd boy. He faced the wolf, the bear and the lion and God let him prevail. So that when he stood before Goliath it wasn't with untested faith but faith that let him more in confidence.

Victorywood would have you believe is your own making, instead of a gift from God and that it grows strong by hearing men like Victorywood talking nonsense instead of being tested. And we all know testing is never fun but it is needed.

Ed

First, I did not really read Watchman's post, and I did not read it intentionally. I was responding only to Rocky and making a reference to all proclamations of doubt and unbelief and the subsequent cursing of one's "enemies" when a debate gets a little heated. You may not agree with my theology of faith (which is based on God's Word) but you really shouldn't misrepresent it or claim that I believe something that I don't. You see, that is typical heresy hunting stratagem born in the school of Hank Hanegraaff and John MacArthur.

But Ed, no need for an apology. Just give me a free hotdog. Have mine prepared with ketchup, mustard and relish. YUM!! My mouth is watering just talking about

I don't think I have misrepresented your theology in fact I think I nailed it when I exposed it as being false. You either trust in God or you trust in your faith.
I trust in God and I believe from what you have said you trust in your faith. That you have enough faith to make God indentured to you. I say that is a falsehood. Scripture clearly says God is in no man's debt.

Alright Ed

Let me show you this strawman you built so that you can stop beating your chest for having "exposed" me. Now, by the numbers:

1. You claim that you and W-2013 are fighting the false teaching that if you have enough faith and all you will never have your faith tested. The only problem is that I nor anyone else has taught that. So this is a strawman Ed. On the contrary I and others have taught the opposite of what you and W-2013 claim to be fighting against.

So you are now saying that Christians do face trials just as non Christians do?

2. You said, "Victorywood would have you believe is your own making, instead of a gift from God and that it grows strong by hearing men like Victorywood talking nonsense instead of being tested." Here is another strawman. The Bible is clear that faith has its foundation on God's Word (Rom. 10:17; Eph. 2:13; Rom. 8:12-13, and multiple other Scriptures). Now, you may be partially right when you say that "victorywood" (has anyone ever heard of a piece of "wood" giving us "victory" ) does not believe that faith is some gift of God that you get supernaturally zapped with on a selective basis as taught within Calvinist circles. However "victorywood" (victoryword) believes that God has made faith available to all through the agency of His Word as the Bible clearly states.

Faith is also listed as a gift of the spirit 1 Cor

So Ed, it's a poor apologist that must build strawmen to knock down. I really don't think leaving the pastoral ministry and entering into the apologetics ministry is for you. I think you are better suited for "street ministry". Imagine all of the souls you can win as you sell those hotdogs out on the streets

They are only strawmen if you believe Christians have trials in their lives. And that would contradictory to the teaching of the WOF that say you only have trials if you lack faith, have sin or speak negative things into your life.