Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Some questions for all those that say God isn't in control

[Justaned]

Sovereignty isn't an attribute. It is the right to exercise royal power, and the actual exercise of it. For example, Queen Elizabeth has sovereignty because she is the Queen of England. Once she hands over the throne to her successor, she will no longer be able to exercise sovereignty. It doesn't follow her as a personal trait.
God is sovereign because he is King. But the Bible reveals that he is not yet fully exercising his sovereignty -- his royal power -- over our world. He is in charge, but is not yet in control. {/quote]
Where or how is that revealed? It is never even remotely suggestted in scripture that I see. Please provide you proof text (one that will stand on its own when both alone and in context.

The Bible presents us with a story that unfolds in actual history. It tends to shy away from giving us doctrinal information (such as “the sovereignty of God") as isolated chunks of data. Instead, it presents these matters in the context of the real world and real life.

So in Genesis we read of the Creator who made man and woman and blessed them with an amazing creation to reign over and govern (Gen 1.26 and 28). But when they sinned, they handed over the governing of this world to someone else. They were no longer governing under God. They handed over control of the world to God’s ultimate enemy, Satan himself. He became “the god of this world” (2 Cor 4.4).

2 Corinthians 4:4 (NKJV)
4 whose minds the god of this age has blinded, who do not believe, lest the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine on them.

You talk of me proof texting and then you rip this verse from context as proof that Satan is in control by the words of god of this age.
First it is talking about pagans, secondly it is talking about pagan that worship a false god (hence the small g)
This verse does not even remotely implying that anyone is stating Satan is in control.

That's why we read some pretty startling things in the New Testament: Satan tempted Jesus by offering to give him authority over the kingdoms of the world because, Satan said, “they are mine to give to anyone I please” (Luke 4.6),

Yes I know I'm proof texting according to you but again it stands alone and in context. John 8:44 (NKJV)
44 You are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own resources, for he is a liar and the father of it.

Yes Jesus did call him a liar. There is no truth in him.

Jesus didn't disagree; Jesus himself referred to Satan as “the ruler of this world” (John 12.31) and Paul called him “the ruler of the powers of the air” -- the unseen world (Ephesians 2.2); the apostle John writes that although the children of God are protected from the Evil One, the whole world around us is under his control (1 John 5.19). Satan is the de facto pseudo-ruler of this world system.

Pseudo ruler is key here. I Satan's mind he is the ruler but in fact God has control. But God has chosen to allow man to choose who man will follow, Satan the father of Lies or God the definition of truth.

It isn't until the 7th trumpet is sounded in the Book of Revelation that the rightful King assumes his sovereign power and begins to reign (Rev 11.17; see also 19.6). In the meanwhile, as Christ's disciples, we have been taught to look forward to that time, praying "may your Kingdom come on earth" and also "rescue us from the Evil One"!

If Christ was given all authority in Matt 28 how can you even suggest such nonsense?

Christians are like resistance fighters, battling that usurper Satan until the true ruler returns. It's like what happened in WW II when the French government caved in to the Nazis and allowed them to enter France. At the time General Charles de Gaulle was in England, and went on the radio there to encourage the French people to ignore their government's surrender, and fight against Hitler under de Gaulle’s leadership. A large resistance movement began; de Gaulle was in charge of these forces, but he was not yet in control of military and political events in France until he returned at the end of the war.

So although we know that God is in charge and can and does overrule the evil of Satan for good (Romans 8.28), he is not yet in control of this world, and will not be until Christ returns. Paul's comments in Romans 8 are in fact written in the context of believers living in a world where God is not in control, a world still under God's curse, and therefore sometimes baffling believers by the events which take place in it. As resistance fighters, we need to “fight the good fight of faith”, resisting the Enemy as we eagerly await the King’s return.

First the battle is not ours it is the Lords.
It was fought and victory claimed.

And if you didn't know the Lord won.

Jesus now hold the keys to death and hell. Not Satan. Satan can not kill us without God's permission. Never could as proved by the Book of Job.

What we battle is lies, deception, false hoods and our own flesh.

Satan can not touch us in anyway without God's approval.

Jesus said only worry about those that can kill the spirit.

The only way that can happen is if we are separated from God, but Jesus said no one can do that. Satan can't. The only person that can is us ourselves.

Satan will feed us lies, he will try to make us think he is control, he will try to make us doubt God's love for us. Satan will even try to convince us it is our faith and not Jesus' work on the cross that gives us eternal salvation.

[Rocky]

Hello Justaned, I am not understanding this thread. Are you insinuating that God is in control of everything that happens on this planet or that God intervenes in the affairs of humans at times. The latter I believe he does at times, especially on an eschatological level and individually at times. But I do not believe God is control everything on this planet. Could you clarify this question.

[Justaned]

Hello Justaned, I am not understanding this thread. Are you insinuating that God is in control of everything that happens on this planet or that God intervenes in the affairs of humans at times. The latter I believe he does at times, especially on an eschatological level and individually at times. But I do not believe God is control everything on this planet. Could you clarify this question.

I believe nothing happens outside of God's knowledge or outside God's ability to control it if God so choses. Is God involved in every decision man makes? No! Do we have free will? Yes! Can God allow man to make man's own decisions and still accomplish God plan? Yes! Is God surprised by what happens? No!

I believe that the fact that God is able to override or control anything Satan or man does proves God is in ultimate control. I don't believe any of us fully realizes how much God is involved in our lives. I further believe God allows both good and bad things to take place in our lives to develop our character to make us more like Christ.
I did not say God brought the bad things into our life, I said God allowed them to come in. Bad things come from two places our own fleshly decisions and through deception by Satan.

[Ironman]

God is in control! God knows His plan from beginning to end. What God does not get involved with, and what God does not know is what free moral agents will decide to do. Things which may have an influence on GOd's plan. So, God will change His plan to compensate for those who He chooses to help carry out His plan, and God replaces them with others who will do His will!

God is in control and God is not the author of sickness, death, sin and disease. If I were to kill inocent people, children, rob, create distructions, God is not in control of the discisions I personally of my own free will carry out! I agree with macca!

Have you watched the video that Bibleman provided a link for, with Copeland and another man? In it they say God isn't in control. What do you think about that? http://www.kcm.org/kcmmedia/nojs/webcast/307145

No mate, I haven't. I do believe God knows His plan from beginning to end, or it would not be a plan being fulfilled. God does not know what individual free moral agents will do untill they do carry out their thoughts and desires.

Take Abraham for just one of many examples. God asked him to sacrifice his son. Abraham was surprised God would ask of him to do such a thing. It was not untill Abraham raised his knife to kill his son that God stoped him and then God said;

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: FOR NOW I KNOW that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." (Gen. 22:12).

[Justaned]

God is in control! God knows His plan from beginning to end. What God does not get involved with, and what God does not know is what free moral agents will decide to do. Things which may have an influence on GOd's plan. So, God will change His plan to compensate for those who He chooses to help carry out His plan, and God replaces them with others who will do His will!

God is in control and God is not the author of sickness, death, sin and disease. If I were to kill inocent people, children, rob, create distructions, God is not in control of the discisions I personally of my own free will carry out! I agree with macca!

Have you watched the video that Bibleman provided a link for, with Copeland and another man? In it they say God isn't in control. What do you think about that? http://www.kcm.org/kcmmedia/nojs/webcast/307145

No mate, I haven't. I do believe God knows His plan from beginning to end, or it would not be a plan being fulfilled. God does not know what individual free moral agents will do untill they do carry out their thoughts and desires.

Take Abraham for just one of many examples. God asked him to sacrifice his son. Abraham was surprised God would ask of him to do such a thing. It was not untill Abraham raised his knife to kill his son that God stoped him and then God said;

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: FOR NOW I KNOW that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." (Gen. 22:12).

Ironman
Here is where you and I tend to disagree.
Scripture says God is all seeing. That to me says God can see the future.
God doesn't interfere with our decisions but God does know what they are before we even make them. NOTICE I said we make them.

As the example of Abram, God is giving us a demonstration of faith. It would do little good if God said Abram was faithful without the story as we would have no idea what God meant. God had to allow this illustration to be played out before us so we would understand the faith of Abrahm. If God didn't know the results and since men are free will people there was the potential for God having to make the same demand on multiple people before one Abraham would be found and could be used to be the example.

When God called Abraham do you think God was prepared to call multible men from the city in case Abraham didn't accept God's command?

In effect you are suggestting Abraham's action was surprise to God, albeit a pleasant surprise but a surprise nonetheless. I don't think God works in surprises.

[Ironman]

God is in control! God knows His plan from beginning to end. What God does not get involved with, and what God does not know is what free moral agents will decide to do.

It is a contradiction to say GOD knows HIS plan from beginning to end, but YET not know what free moral agents will do. In order for HIM to plan HE must know what free moral agents will do. HE knew that free moral agents will kill HIS Son, therefore HE planned for that from the beginning. HE knew that free moral agents would kill HIS prophets, therefore HE planned for that from the beginning. HE knew that men would commit all manner of sin, murder, cheat, and steal and HE planned for that. HE knew babies would be murdered and HE planned for that. Does this make GOD guilty and not in control because HE knew things and allowed man to choose. NO! and emphatically NO! HIS WORD condemns SINNER who chooses to do as he pleases. HIS WORD justifies the believer who chooses to OBEY. Could GOD stop killings by just speaking the WORD? YES! But it requires MAN to obey. Could GOD stop all the maladies in the world? YES. But it requires MAN to obey. Man gave up HIS right and rulership to the Adversary, therefore THE WHOLE Earth groans because of it.

Paul and Jeremiah are examples of Prophets whom GOD chose from birth. HE intervened in their lives and chose them for HIMSELF. HE said of Jeremiah in 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I KNEW YOU you. NOW this proves 100% that GOD KNEW and set apart Jeremiah BEFORE he spoke one word, before he believed one thought, before he did one thing whether good or bad. Then HE said " And before you were born I consecrated you. I have appointed you a prophet to the nations".

This proves that GOD chose and called Jeremiah. It was HIS will to call Jeremiah before HE was born to make him a prophet. He already called HIM. Now, Jeremiah is/was a free-moral agent. Could he have rejected GOD's calling? No! Though he had a choice to do so. Jeremiah doubted. But was Jeremiah's doubt greater in power that GOD's Word and Spirit as it related to his calling. Jesus had a calling and choice also. Jeremiah's calling, Jesus' calling STILL required obedience.

So GOD is definitely in control. HE knows HIS plan and HE knows what free moral agents can and won't do. But these free moral agents can't thwart HIS will or control nor HIS Spirit. Jonah thought he could get away for GOD's will and plan. Jonah chose by free-will to ignore the will of GOD, but that didn't surprise GOD and didn't catch HIM by surprise. For GOD already KNEW that some men would run from their calling. So what did GOD do? HE used Jonah's own actions to bring him back to the remembrance of HIS word. Was my Father surprised? NO. Was my Father shocked? NO. Was my Father caught of guard? NO. For HE knows ALL things. But in spite of Jonah's actions, GOD's WILL and PLAN which is executed by HIS word was fulfilled.

Dear Truth.

God tested Adam and Eve to see if they would remain faithfull to Him before He granted them acess to the tree of life, They failed and were barred from the tree of life and so God set His plan of salvation into action. God tested Abraham to see how he would choose before He gave Abraham all the blessings. All free moral agents must be tested to see if they are willing to cooperate with God for the greatest good of all. Moral agents must prove themselves true by such tests and become worthy of the confidence of God before being trusted with the eternal administration of the universe.

If God knew beforehand who would be a sinner and rebel then why create them at all? And if God did create such rebels only to finally have to destroy and punish them in eternal Hell for ever more, then that would be no loving God at all?

Everyone can be blessed if the so desire of their own free will! Punishment is not compulsory for anyone, it the free choice of the individual and he alone is to blame for his eternal choice and destiny. God does know His plan for man from beginning to end and God will change His plan if and when necessary to accomodate those who cooperate with Him and circumvent those who choose not to cooperate with Him. God's plan will be carried out despite the wrong choices some chosen people chose to do.

[the_truth]

God is in control! God knows His plan from beginning to end. What God does not get involved with, and what God does not know is what free moral agents will decide to do. Things which may have an influence on GOd's plan. So, God will change His plan to compensate for those who He chooses to help carry out His plan, and God replaces them with others who will do His will!

God is in control and God is not the author of sickness, death, sin and disease. If I were to kill inocent people, children, rob, create distructions, God is not in control of the discisions I personally of my own free will carry out! I agree with macca!

Have you watched the video that Bibleman provided a link for, with Copeland and another man? In it they say God isn't in control. What do you think about that? http://www.kcm.org/kcmmedia/nojs/webcast/307145

No mate, I haven't. I do believe God knows His plan from beginning to end, or it would not be a plan being fulfilled. God does not know what individual free moral agents will do untill they do carry out their thoughts and desires.

Take Abraham for just one of many examples. God asked him to sacrifice his son. Abraham was surprised God would ask of him to do such a thing. It was not untill Abraham raised his knife to kill his son that God stoped him and then God said;

"And he said, Lay not thine hand upon the lad, neither do thou any thing unto him: FOR NOW I KNOW that thou fearest God, seeing thou hast not withheld thy son, thine only son from me." (Gen. 22:12).

To use that verse by itself without using the whole Scripture will lead one into a dangerous doctrine. The Scripture verifies and GOD HIMSELF attested that Abraham was a "father" of many and there were many promises given to and prophecies concerning HIM that were known before HE was born. So GOD knew that Abraham would be faithful. Just because HE is faithful doesn't mean that he will not tested. The testing of the Saints is required. For by it worketh patience. James 1:3

In addition, it was the Messenger of THE LORD that spoke those words. The Messenger of THE LORD is not THE LORD, but HE is a messenger for HIM. And the Messenger of the LORD does not know ALL things unless THE LORD reveal it to the messenger.

So there is no contradiction. THE FATHER knows ALL THINGS and his Messengers do not unless the HE reveals it to HIS messengers HIS knowledge.

GOD knew Abraham was FAITHFUL that is why HE proved him. Read Genesis 17. That ought to tell you GOD ALMIGHTY knew the man who HE made an everlasting covenant with. If THE FATHER is as YOU say not ALL-KNOWING, then that makes HIM like man. And the GOD I believe and Scripture attest to says "I AM NOT A MAN nor a SON OF MAN....and there is NONE LIKE ME".

[Ironman]

Justaned wrote,

"Ironman
Here is where you and I tend to disagree.
Scripture says God is all seeing. That to me says God can see the future.
God doesn't interfere with our decisions but God does know what they are before we even make them. NOTICE I said we make them.

As the example of Abram, God is giving us a demonstration of faith. It would do little good if God said Abram was faithful without the story as we would have no idea what God meant. God had to allow this illustration to be played out before us so we would understand the faith of Abrahm. If God didn't know the results and since men are free will people there was the potential for God having to make the same demand on multiple people before one Abraham would be found and could be used to be the example.

When God called Abraham do you think God was prepared to call multible men from the city in case Abraham didn't accept God's command?

In effect you are suggestting Abraham's action was surprise to God, albeit a pleasant surprise but a surprise nonetheless. I don't think God works in surprises."

.

Hi Justaned.
If God knew what Abraham would do then God is lying to us because it was not untill Abraham raised his knife and was about to kill his son that God stopped him and said, FOR NOW I KNOW, not before, but after the act!

God never said; "Your a good bloke Abraham, I knew all along you would obey Me and not let Me down?
I should have created you Adam, I knew he would fail me, and Abraham would not! I could have saved myself all this trouble and I would not have had to send the Word to die for mankind either! Dear Oh dear, what have I done??

"When God called Abraham do you think God was prepared to call multible men from the city in case Abraham didn't accept God's command? "

.

Yes. Had Abraham failed the test God would have chosen another to take his place at a later time so that His Plan for man would be carried out to the end!

"In effect you are suggestting Abraham's action was surprise to God, albeit a pleasant surprise but a surprise nonetheless. I don't think God works in surprises."

.

Not really. I dont think it was a surprise to God that Abraham would obey. God had an idea of Abrahams human nature, but God had no idea at all how Abraham would choose when God gave him such an extreem test, as to do as the pagan and heathens did.

Had Abraham failed God would not have blessed Abraham as He did and God would not have said this after the test;

"By myself have I sworn, saith the LORD, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son: That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies; And in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed; because thou hast obeyed my voice."

[the_truth]

Dear Truth.

God tested Adam and Eve to see if they would remain faithfull to Him before He granted them acess to the tree of life, They failed and were barred from the tree of life and so God set His plan of salvation into action. God tested Abraham to see how he would choose before He gave Abraham all the blessings. All free moral agents must be tested to see if they are willing to cooperate with God for the greatest good of all. Moral agents must prove themselves true by such tests and become worthy of the confidence of God before being trusted with the eternal administration of the universe.

If God knew beforehand who would be a sinner and rebel then why create them at all? And if God did create such rebels only to finally have to destroy and punish them in eternal Hell for ever more, then that would be no loving God at all?

Everyone can be blessed if the so desire of their own free will! Punishment is not compulsory for anyone, it the free choice of the individual and he alone is to blame for his eternal choice and destiny. God does know His plan for man from beginning to end and God will change His plan if and when necessary to accomodate those who cooperate with Him and circumvent those who choose not to cooperate with Him. God's plan will be carried out despite the wrong choices some chosen people chose to do.

On the contrary GOD did not test Adam and Eve. HE knew they would sin because HIS plan which was laid before the foundation of the world showed that HIS creation would sin and would require atonement.

And you do error concerning Abraham. And the Scripture proves it. Go read Genesis 15 and 17. Abraham was given THE PROMISE and a covenant was sealed with him BEFORE Gen 22 and before Issac was born.

The reason GOD created HIS creation is so that we can be ONE with HIM. GOD is not a dictator. HE created man Perfect. HIS word and HIS plan allows for man to mar itself and creation. Is GOD guilty for allowing man to have the freedom to obey or not? NO and most definitely NO. The Word of GOD which was in existence before the world began cannot contradict itself. You limit GOD's knowledge because you can't explain why things are allowed to happen. But if one understood that HIS Plan and WILL incorporates man's obedience and lack thereof, then you would understand HOW AWESOME HE is. You think Gen 22 happened by chance? NO. It was PLANNED. It was a foreshadow of what HE HIMSELF(THE FATHER) would do.

[Ironman]

God is in total control over the whole universe, except here on Earth where His will is not being done, "as it is in Heaven!" The majority of free moral agents have chosen sin and rejected God, and God is working to have this situation reversed. The time will soon come when only those who freely choose to be with God forever, and remain with Him in a sin free state will be left. God will eventually get rid of all sin, sickness, disease and death, eternally. God wants no man to miss out on salvation. It is up to each free moral agent to choose for himself his own destiny!

When God's will is finally done on Earth, as it is in Heaven, then there will be no sin, sickness or rebellion and there will be no such thing as death anymore! God the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost are now working on having the Fathers will done on Earth, as it is in Heaven.

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son." (Rev. 21:1-7).