Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ The eternal sonship heresy!

[Hill Top]

So Jesus was born before He was born? Very baroque concept.

Yes. A very Christian concept - always was. We believe in two Nativities: One according to Divinity and one according to humanity.

Mind telling us who is "we"?

I meant we who hold to the more orthodox position.

I interpret the "we" as people who are from places we are not!"

It is an "unknowable" we.

You should have stuck with the context.
I was trying to figure out who believes in two nativities/births of Christ.
I feel one time was sufficient.

I was just trying to torment patrissimo a little bit using the same kind of goofy language that he uses in his responses.

I guess I should have made that clear.

OK, thanks.
I used to use a "Sarcasm Alert" before posting...when necessary, but found out the world could do with less sarcasm from me.
I put it in the "jesting" category of Eph 5:4..."Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks."

[bibleman]

Yes. A very Christian concept - always was. We believe in two Nativities: One according to Divinity and one according to humanity.

Mind telling us who is "we"?

I meant we who hold to the more orthodox position.

I interpret the "we" as people who are from places we are not!"

It is an "unknowable" we.

You should have stuck with the context.
I was trying to figure out who believes in two nativities/births of Christ.
I feel one time was sufficient.

I was just trying to torment patrissimo a little bit using the same kind of goofy language that he uses in his responses.

I guess I should have made that clear.

OK, thanks.
I used to use a "Sarcasm Alert" before posting...when necessary, but found out the world could do with less sarcasm from me.
I put it in the "jesting" category of Eph 5:4..."Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks."

Yeah that or in the category of trying to show someone the foolishness of their thinking.

[Polemique]

The Westminster Confession of Faith states: "III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son."

The Westminster Confession violates their own Confession in asserting that "the Son is eternally begotten of the Father."

A great part of the Confession states: "IX. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself:" Too bad they did not follow this rule of interpretation in so many places and particularly in this heresy of eternal sonship.

The Bible makes it clear, the WORD was NOT born a son until he was born a son in Bethlehem.

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Dake notes:

b [Son of God] Sonship with Christ always refers to humanity, not to deity. As God, He had no beginning (Mic. 5:2; Jn. 1:1-2); was not begotten or He would have had a beginning as God; and was not God's Son. But as man, He had a beginning, was begotten, and was God's Son (Ps. 2:7,12; Mt. 1:18-25; Lk. 1:35; Heb. 1:5-6). In these passages it is clear that there was a certain day when God was to have a Son and the Son have a Father. It was to be in the future from the time the prophets spoke. If sonship refers to deity, then this deity had a beginning on a certain day and He was not eternal. But if it refers to humanity, then all scriptures are clear and we have no man-made mystery of the so-called eternal sonship of Jesus Christ. If it refers to both deity and humanity, then when did He become God, when was He begotten, how could He have been eternal? If He had a beginning and was begotten then He was not, nor is He, an eternal God. If He was a son of God by creation, then He is no greater than angels and other beings who had beginnings. Multiplied problems increase and become unanswerable with Scripture if we hold to the theory of eternal sonship, but all questions are clear when we accept the plain statements of Scripture that sonship refers to humanity and not to deity.
Finis Jennings Dake, Dake's Annotated Reference Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized or King James Version Text, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Bible Sales, Inc., 1997), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "Side Notes And End Notes Of Luke".

My understanding is that Christ cannot be both God and divisible. Division is material and finite. This has similarity to Mohammed's demonic visit and also of the visit to Joseph Smith where an angel of light also told him that the Son is not eternal. Displacing Christ as eternal seems to be analogous to all false belief, including atheist materialist's that claim matter is eternal. This is not what Dake believed is it? If there is a Holy Trinity, then it must be inseparable and simple for complexity is separable into parts and bodies.

[bibleman]

The Westminster Confession of Faith states: "III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three persons, of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost: the Father is of none, neither begotten, nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son."

The Westminster Confession violates their own Confession in asserting that "the Son is eternally begotten of the Father."

A great part of the Confession states: "IX. The infallible rule of interpretation of Scripture is the Scripture itself:" Too bad they did not follow this rule of interpretation in so many places and particularly in this heresy of eternal sonship.

The Bible makes it clear, the WORD was NOT born a son until he was born a son in Bethlehem.

Luke 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

Dake notes:

b [Son of God] Sonship with Christ always refers to humanity, not to deity. As God, He had no beginning (Mic. 5:2; Jn. 1:1-2); was not begotten or He would have had a beginning as God; and was not God's Son. But as man, He had a beginning, was begotten, and was God's Son (Ps. 2:7,12; Mt. 1:18-25; Lk. 1:35; Heb. 1:5-6). In these passages it is clear that there was a certain day when God was to have a Son and the Son have a Father. It was to be in the future from the time the prophets spoke. If sonship refers to deity, then this deity had a beginning on a certain day and He was not eternal. But if it refers to humanity, then all scriptures are clear and we have no man-made mystery of the so-called eternal sonship of Jesus Christ. If it refers to both deity and humanity, then when did He become God, when was He begotten, how could He have been eternal? If He had a beginning and was begotten then He was not, nor is He, an eternal God. If He was a son of God by creation, then He is no greater than angels and other beings who had beginnings. Multiplied problems increase and become unanswerable with Scripture if we hold to the theory of eternal sonship, but all questions are clear when we accept the plain statements of Scripture that sonship refers to humanity and not to deity.
Finis Jennings Dake, Dake's Annotated Reference Bible: Containing the Old and New Testaments of the Authorized or King James Version Text, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Bible Sales, Inc., 1997), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, Under: "Side Notes And End Notes Of Luke".

My understanding is that Christ cannot be both God and divisible. Division is material and finite. This has similarity to Mohammed's demonic visit and also of the visit to Joseph Smith where an angel of light also told him that the Son is not eternal. Displacing Christ as eternal seems to be analogous to all false belief, including atheist materialist's that claim matter is eternal. This is not what Dake believed is it? If there is a Holy Trinity, then it must be inseparable and simple for complexity is separable into parts and bodies.

I would encourage you to support your questions and comments with Scripture. Then we would have a foundation for a discussion.'

Here is Dake's definition of the Trinity.

TRINITY. This means the union of three persons—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit in one (unified) Godhead or divinity—so that all three persons are one in unity and eternal substance, but three separate and distinct persons as to individuality (1 Jn. 5:7-8; Dan. 7:9-14; Mt. 3:16-17; 28:19; Acts 7:56-59).
Finis J. Dake, God's Plan for Man, (Lawrenceville, GA: Dake Publishing, Inc., 2004), WORDsearch CROSS e-book, 51.

[Polemique]

"But as man, He had a beginning, was begotten, and was God's Son (Ps. 2:7,12; Mt. 1:18-25; Lk. 1:35; Heb. 1:5-6). In these passages it is clear that there was a certain day when God was to have a Son and the Son have a Father. It was to be in the future from the time the prophets spoke. If sonship refers to deity, then this deity had a beginning on a certain day and He was not eternal."

OK. I see.

1) The OT prophets and the Gospels affirm a Virgin Birth as well as the interjection by the Holy Spirit of the Son into the Virgin. The same God-breathed Logos into Adam is the second Adam into the Virgin. This is not a new Logos. The Christ Yeshua Logos is the very same Logos from the beginning that breathed into Adam. The gospels say that Christ is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, NOT that he had an alpha and omega. The Holy Trinity speaks into our fallen nature that which we can understand and NOT die. The beginning of the incarnate Word is our perception of beginnings because we cannot fully conceive of anything NOT having a beginning and end. This is knowledge perhaps of the tree of Life.

2) Dake seems to critically err by attributing finite perception and understanding of man to the actualization of the Holy Trinity. This seems to be analogous to Muslim and Mormon conjuring of belief. Muslim Mohammedism is materialistic in understanding with heaven being on a planet with virgins.....Mormon Smithism is materialistic sharing similar understating of planetary inheritance as the Moslems. What separates the Gospel from false gospels is the mystery of the godhead, the transcendent nature of God. Heterodoxy always make claim to rationalizing the transcendent to this finite understanding.

3) Scripture interpreting itself is divorcing the human interpreter from the equation and thus I wonder if Dake ever considered the folly of 40,000 privately-interpreted divisions of Christ. If so, if everyone can interpret Scripture from itself, where is the end? It seems an endless competition for audience.

4) I wonder if Dake ever considered that a significant percentage of people on earth were not functionally literate until the last 100 years of history?
....that literacy and mass-produced and disseminated literature is contemporary to Dake?

[patrissimo]

"Then Jesus answered, and said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you, the Son cannot do any thing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doth, these the Son also doth in like manner. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things which himself doth: and greater works than these will he shew him, that you may wonder. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and giveth life: so the Son also giveth life to whom he will." - Jn. 5:19-22

This says the Son does "what things soever" that the Father is doing. The Father did a lot of things prior to Christ's Nativity such as create the world, give the law, etc. This does not say the Word doeth what things soever; it says the SON doeth what things soever. One of the things the Son does like the Father here is raise the dead. Three people wee raised from the dead in the OT which means the SON did it.

[Ironman]

"Then Jesus answered, and said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you, the Son cannot do any thing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doth, these the Son also doth in like manner. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things which himself doth: and greater works than these will he shew him, that you may wonder. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and giveth life: so the Son also giveth life to whom he will." - Jn. 5:19-22

This says the Son does "what things soever" that the Father is doing. The Father did a lot of things prior to Christ's Nativity such as create the world, give the law, etc. This does not say the Word doeth what things soever; it says the SON doeth what things soever. One of the things the Son does like the Father here is raise the dead. Three people wee raised from the dead in the OT which means the SON did it.

You say the Father created the world.

No according to Scripture! The Word, who was with God, before He became flesh; (Jesus), created everything.

John 1: 1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2, The same was in the beginning with God.
3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And verse 10, He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

[Ironman]

"Then Jesus answered, and said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you, the Son cannot do any thing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doth, these the Son also doth in like manner. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things which himself doth: and greater works than these will he shew him, that you may wonder. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and giveth life: so the Son also giveth life to whom he will." - Jn. 5:19-22

This says the Son does "what things soever" that the Father is doing. The Father did a lot of things prior to Christ's Nativity such as create the world, give the law, etc. This does not say the Word doeth what things soever; it says the SON doeth what things soever. One of the things the Son does like the Father here is raise the dead. Three people wee raised from the dead in the OT which means the SON did it.

You say the Father created the world.

Not according to Scripture! The Word, who was with God, before He became flesh; (Jesus), created everything.

John 1: 1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2, The same was in the beginning with God.
3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And verse 10, He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

[patrissimo]

"Then Jesus answered, and said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you, the Son cannot do any thing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doth, these the Son also doth in like manner. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things which himself doth: and greater works than these will he shew him, that you may wonder. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and giveth life: so the Son also giveth life to whom he will." - Jn. 5:19-22

This says the Son does "what things soever" that the Father is doing. The Father did a lot of things prior to Christ's Nativity such as create the world, give the law, etc. This does not say the Word doeth what things soever; it says the SON doeth what things soever. One of the things the Son does like the Father here is raise the dead. Three people wee raised from the dead in the OT which means the SON did it.

You say the Father created the world.

Not according to Scripture! The Word, who was with God, before He became flesh; (Jesus), created everything.

John 1: 1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2, The same was in the beginning with God.
3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And verse 10, He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

All Three Persons of the Trinity are God. God created everything that is created. Just because a verse says the Word created everything doesn't mean the other Persons did not.

[Ironman]

"Then Jesus answered, and said to them: Amen, amen, I say unto you, the Son cannot do any thing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doth, these the Son also doth in like manner. For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things which himself doth: and greater works than these will he shew him, that you may wonder. For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and giveth life: so the Son also giveth life to whom he will." - Jn. 5:19-22

This says the Son does "what things soever" that the Father is doing. The Father did a lot of things prior to Christ's Nativity such as create the world, give the law, etc. This does not say the Word doeth what things soever; it says the SON doeth what things soever. One of the things the Son does like the Father here is raise the dead. Three people wee raised from the dead in the OT which means the SON did it.

You say the Father created the world.

Not according to Scripture! The Word, who was with God, before He became flesh; (Jesus), created everything.

John 1: 1, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2, The same was in the beginning with God.
3, All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

And verse 10, He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.

All Three Persons of the Trinity are God. God created everything that is created. Just because a verse says the Word created everything doesn't mean the other Persons did not.

1John 5:7, For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
1John 5:8,And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one. You go to any court in the world and try and be three witnesses.

There are separate and distinct persons in the Godhead. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, and these three are "ONE" in unity, not one body..
The Holy Bible clearly states that the Word created everything, the Word made everything, the Word created the World. I believe the Holy Bible, not your personal FLAWED interpretation of the Bible.