Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ KEEP REPENTING OR ETERNAL SECURITY?

[luchnia]

Luchnia, You have an unusual name. May I ask where you are from?

I devised this screenname from the book of revelation. It comes from the word luchnos which means portable lampstand or candlestick holder. I think it is in Revelation chapter 7, if I remember correctly.

[luchnia]

Hilltop, you wrote, "Totally different than the ways and results of a previous covenant that could not make men perfect"

If the previous covenant could not make men perfect, does that mean no Jews were saved? How was David saved?

BTW, do you belong to any denomination or Christian group?

Don't forget about Abraham. He was 430 years before the law. Sort of blows the OT non-perfection salvation thing out of the water. One must understand what is meant about perfection, holiness, and righteousness.

[bibleman]

OK got a question for you my friend.

You were asked "Hilltop, are you saying you never sin?????? That it's possible for a true Christian not to sin????? Come on man!"
You said: "That is indeed what I'm saying."
Now I am not advocating sin and I believe that Christians can certainly walk free from Death Penalty sins if they choose to do so.
BUT If Christians never sin then what is the purpose of this passage?

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

Please allow me to para-phrase the verses...
"I wrote this so you don't commit sin.
If any man not yet in Christ sins, we have an Advocate they can rely on.
For as He paid for our sins, He can pay for the sinner's too.
The next two verses identify who "knows Christ-God",..."And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
If that hasn't answered your question, let me know.

Well not really an answer... because your paraphrase changes the meaning of the passage to something passage does not say.
So could you explain the verse WITHOUT the paraphrase?

Hmmm.
I thought my para-phrase did explain it, but...
John is pointing out that there is an Advocate for those who commit sin.
You know, those walking in darkness.
Jesus was our Advocate, allowing us to start walking in the light-God and all those wishing to walk in the light can use the same Advocate we once used.
The "any man" opens Christ's advocacy to the world.

I hope that explains it better.

Above you said: "Jesus was our Advocate, allowing us to start walking in the light-God and all those wishing to walk in the light can use the same Advocate we once used."

So are you saying that you no longer have need of Jesus as an advocate for sin?

[luchnia]

Hilltop, you are saying that immediately after every Christian is born again they never sin again. On paper that may be a clever answer but far from reality.

I don't "say it", 1 John 3:9 says it.

Where does this verse indicate that one born of God cannot fall away? Of course it doesn't, yet you claim the verse says it. The verse doesn't indicate that at all so why continually add it? You continuously leave the seed part out of the verse to support the erroneous man made doctrine a saint can never fall away.

We should all know the verse by now. Notice the word "for" in the verse: 1 Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

The seed remains in one born of God and they cannot sin. It simply will not happen with God's seed. The question is what happens to the seed when one chooses sin? What seed is in place in the heart when that occurs? Of course, you imply they were never born again in the first place as you continuously state. No man will ever make God liable for sin and ultimately that is what this all boils down to.

Every surrounding verse is just as important as the one you take out of context. God's seed is incapable of sin as there is no darkness within that seed. The darkness of sin is without that seed and within another seed. Comprehending the seed of God and how it works will change the one-sided view to encompass all of the concept.

I am curious about something else with your group's teaching. Are you of mindset that the seal of the Holy Spirit can never be broken? I am guessing your answer to the question is yes.

[Hill Top]

Hilltop wrote, "The OT had atonements for sin, sacrificial animals for blood payments for sins. But before Jesus' crucifixion and more importantly resurrection, all men were walking in the flesh. Whereas we can now walk in the Spirit after joining with Christ at water baptism-immersion into Him and His death...and resurrection as new creatures born of the seed of God.

But didn't Paul say that the blood of goats and doves could save no one?

Where did he say that?

[Hill Top]

So are you saying that you no longer have need of Jesus as an advocate for sin?

That is correct.
His advocacy was effective in that by Him I was made free from sin.
Praise be to God!

[bibleman]

So are you saying that you no longer have need of Jesus as an advocate for sin?

That is correct.
His advocacy was effective in that by Him I was made free from sin.
Praise be to God!

OK... my friend lets get real...

Now you know that from the time you accepted Jesus as your saviour until now.... that you have sinned at least one time.

Right?

[Hill Top]

Hilltop, you are saying that immediately after every Christian is born again they never sin again. On paper that may be a clever answer but far from reality.

I don't "say it", 1 John 3:9 says it.

Where does this verse, (1 John 3:9), indicate that one born of God cannot fall away?

It is written..."... for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God."

Of course it doesn't, yet you claim the verse says it. The verse doesn't indicate that at all so why continually add it? You continuously leave the seed part out of the verse to support the erroneous man made doctrine a saint can never fall away.

Perhaps you should read it again.

We should all know the verse by now. Notice the word "for" in the verse: 1 Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
The seed remains in one born of God and they cannot sin. It simply will not happen with God's seed. The question is what happens to the seed when one chooses sin? What seed is in place in the heart when that occurs? Of course, you imply they were never born again in the first place as you continuously state. No man will ever make God liable for sin and ultimately that is what this all boils down to.

Why do you refuse to believe what is written?

Every surrounding verse is just as important as the one you take out of context. God's seed is incapable of sin as there is no darkness within that seed. The darkness of sin is without that seed and within another seed. Comprehending the seed of God and how it works will change the one-sided view to encompass all of the concept.

Who DOES commit sin?
1 John 3:10 says who..." In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God,..."

I am curious about something else with your group's teaching. Are you of mindset that the seal of the Holy Spirit can never be broken?

If we renege on our end of the "deal", then God is justified in removing the seal of the inheritance.
My answer is "No".

[Hill Top]

Hill Tops position is higher than the Baptist "once saved always saved" false doctrine by believing that a true Christian never sins after his new birth. Not only have I never heard of this before during my 41 years of being a serious Christian but I never heard of a person accomplishing this in all of Christian history. Jesus is called the Son of David but even David committed some very serious sins.

Who cares from which lineage He was of?
Jesus never committed a sin, and He was under the same, and sometimes worse threats to life and limb as we are now.
"Tempted like as we are, yet without sin." (Heb 4:15)

I just finished reading I John this morning and Galatian 4:19-31 where Paul writes "My little children, of whom I travail IN BIRTH AGAIN until Christ be formed in you", v.19. This says that Paul is travailing a second time for their salvation.

Had they been successfully "birthed" the first try, why would Paul need another crack at it?

Bottom line: I don't buy Hill Tops doctrine that a Christian never sins; Secondly, regarding the apparent contradiction of Paul condemning the foolish Galatians for coming under the law and 1 Johns's command that we keep the law, I think the scriptures are saying that we should be led by the Spirit of God in keeping the law and by keeping the seed/word in our hearts as opposed to the O.T. legalistic way the Jews kept it. Was it Isaiah who prophesied that in a future covenant God would write the word/commandments in our hearts? What say you Dake Lovers?

What is the result of being led by the Spirit of God?
You advocate for a way of life you "don't buy".

[Hill Top]

So are you saying that you no longer have need of Jesus as an advocate for sin?

That is correct.
His advocacy was effective in that by Him I was made free from sin.
Praise be to God!

OK... my friend lets get real...
Now you know that from the time you accepted Jesus as your saviour until now.... that you have sinned at least one time.
Right?

Wrong.
By the grace of God and power of the Holy Spirit I have "kept the faith".