Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ Does this sound like once saved always saved to you?

[Reuben]

Romans 11:22-23 (KJV)
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

He lays down the conditions that are so obvious here. "If" you continue... but if you don't you will be cut off. However, if like they, you do not remain in unbelief, you can also be grafted in again. Very clear clear here.

Again this is addressing the Jew's unbelief that Jesus is the Messiah. While the results are the same and we may view it as sin, it is different than being saved and then committing a willful sin.

Notice again the above highlighted. He is not addressing those who do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. He uses words like "thee" and "thou also" which is referring to believers not unbelievers. Then, he explicitly shows that if a person does not remain in unbelief they can be reinstated or grafted in again as can Israel if they also return.

Look at Peter for an example. Obviously Peter was in good standing with God according to John 15:3 (KJV) Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

But then Peter denies Christ. According to Jesus this can't be done without eternal ramifications. Matthew 10:33 (KJV) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus stated he needed to turn back again.
Luke 22:32
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

[Justaned]

Romans 11:22-23 (KJV)
22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

He lays down the conditions that are so obvious here. "If" you continue... but if you don't you will be cut off. However, if like they, you do not remain in unbelief, you can also be grafted in again. Very clear clear here.

Again this is addressing the Jew's unbelief that Jesus is the Messiah. While the results are the same and we may view it as sin, it is different than being saved and then committing a willful sin.

Notice again the above highlighted. He is not addressing those who do not believe Jesus is the Messiah. He uses words like "thee" and "thou also" which is referring to believers not unbelievers. Then, he explicitly shows that if a person does not remain in unbelief they can be reinstated or grafted in again as can Israel if they also return.

Look at Peter for an example. Obviously Peter was in good standing with God according to John 15:3 (KJV) Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

But then Peter denies Christ. According to Jesus this can't be done without eternal ramifications. Matthew 10:33 (KJV) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus stated he needed to turn back again.
Luke 22:32
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

No let us not go zooming around here let us stay with the Romans passage
Romans 11:17-24 (NASB)
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these who are the natural branches be grafted into their own olive tree?
This passage is definitely talking of the Jew and their failure to accept Jesus as their Messiah.

Romans 11:17-24 (NLT)
17 But some of these branches from Abraham’s tree—some of the people of Israel—have been broken off. And you Gentiles, who were branches from a wild olive tree, have been grafted in. So now you also receive the blessing God has promised Abraham and his children, sharing in the rich nourishment from the root of God’s special olive tree.
18 But you must not brag about being grafted in to replace the branches that were broken off. You are just a branch, not the root.
19 “Well,” you may say, “those branches were broken off to make room for me.”
20 Yes, but remember—those branches were broken off because they didn’t believe in Christ, and you are there because you do believe. So don’t think highly of yourself, but fear what could happen.
21 For if God did not spare the original branches, he won’t spare you either.
22 Notice how God is both kind and severe. He is severe toward those who disobeyed, but kind to you if you continue to trust in his kindness. But if you stop trusting, you also will be cut off.
23 And if the people of Israel turn from their unbelief, they will be grafted in again, for God has the power to graft them back into the tree.
24 You, by nature, were a branch cut from a wild olive tree. So if God was willing to do something contrary to nature by grafting you into his cultivated tree, he will be far more eager to graft the original branches back into the tree where they belong.

Here it is in context with a translation that is a little more explanatory.
Passage is talking of the Jews not of sinners.
Don't you agree?

[Reuben]

Not sure why there is a misunderstanding of what I said but let me try again. Paul is speaking/writing TO believers ABOUT the jewish unbelief. He clearly warns the believers that if they fall into unbelief as the Jews did - they too will be cutoff. However, God is able to graft the Jews in again just as he can do that for any backslider.

[Reuben]

Ed said that a person cannot be saved again after backsliding. I pity the poor person who backslides in his church and falls back into his former lifestyle because Ed wont reach out to the person because he doesn't believe they can be saved again.
That is what you said right Ed?

[Justaned]

Not sure why there is a misunderstanding of what I said but let me try again. Paul is speaking/writing TO believers ABOUT the jewish unbelief. He clearly warns the believers that if they fall into unbelief as the Jews did - they too will be cutoff. However, God is able to graft the Jews in again just as he can do that for any backslider.

Reuben where does God say he will graft back in unbelievers that were once grafted in and cut off? It doesn't God said he will forgive unbelief not sin. Once sinner has tasted the truth and left it I don't see a way back.

[Justaned]

Ed said that a person cannot be saved again after backsliding. I pity the poor person who backslides in his church and falls back into his former lifestyle because Ed wont reach out to the person because he doesn't believe they can be saved again.
That is what you said right Ed?

i don't see the poor person, as you put it, trying to get back. I believe they are really saved, know the truth and then walk away they will never walk back.
I believe many have imagined they did this but I don't think they ever were really saved and I'm not sure if they think like this they are save even yet. To be saved requires a unconscious changing of the mind that is only wrought in man by the Holy Spirit, I think a lot of people hear about hell don't want to go to hell and try to live a Christ like life BUT they have never been truly born again. They still hold to their rights, their desires, their wants, and their desires. Instead of seeking first God's kingdom.
They worry about not having enough money, being sick, dying horrible deaths instead of worrying about how they can best serve God. In other words the flesh has never been crucified it was only brought into submission of their will not into submission of God's will.

If a man comes to me seeking salvation I would do what ever it takes to assist him in the quest. I just don't think it will ever happen to a person that was truly saved and walked away.

[Reuben]

I disagree with OSAS because I believe a Christian can lose his or her salvation. I just don't believe it can then ever be regained again. Do you see that mentioned any where in scripture?

This is what you said. You do not believe that a person who loses their salvation can be saved again. I am thinking of a young man who came to the church and got saved. He demonstrated the fruit of a changed life and remained for quite sometime. His family attested to the change. Over time, he begin to slide away, and eventually went back to the lifestyle he was in before salvation. He was in drugs and alcohol and eventually prison. I wrote to him and witnessed to him to get back to Christ. Thank the Lord he eventually came back to the altar and received salvation again and he has been on fire for God ever since. But, I guess, in your church, you wouldn't have bothered because he can't be re-saved.

[Reuben]

Not sure why there is a misunderstanding of what I said but let me try again. Paul is speaking/writing TO believers ABOUT the jewish unbelief. He clearly warns the believers that if they fall into unbelief as the Jews did - they too will be cutoff. However, God is able to graft the Jews in again just as he can do that for any backslider.

Reuben where does God say he will graft back in unbelievers that were once grafted in and cut off? It doesn't God said he will forgive unbelief not sin. Once sinner has tasted the truth and left it I don't see a way back.

Unbelief is sin.

Jeremiah 3:1 (KJV)
1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

You had asked for Scriptures and here is another one. Israel had left God, but He made a plea to them to return, meaning that it can happen.

And of course we have the Peter situation.


Then how do you explain Peter?

[Justaned]

I disagree with OSAS because I believe a Christian can lose his or her salvation. I just don't believe it can then ever be regained again. Do you see that mentioned any where in scripture?

This is what you said. You do not believe that a person who loses their salvation can be saved again. I am thinking of a young man who came to the church and got saved. He demonstrated the fruit of a changed life and remained for quite sometime. His family attested to the change. Over time, he begin to slide away, and eventually went back to the lifestyle he was in before salvation. He was in drugs and alcohol and eventually prison. I wrote to him and witnessed to him to get back to Christ. Thank the Lord he eventually came back to the altar and received salvation again and he has been on fire for God ever since. But, I guess, in your church, you wouldn't have bothered because he can't be re-saved.

Actually I don't know what I would have done. I would have prayed about it and let the Holy Spirit lead me. Since I can't tell if someone is saved or if they are just a really good actor. Likewise I can't judge if they aren't saved or just acting stupid. That is not my role in life my role is to do what the Master would have me do. I'm not in the business of getting people saved, in my opinion that is the Holy Spirits job. My job is to preach the Good News. I witness Jesus to anybody that will listen and many that don't.

[Justaned]

Not sure why there is a misunderstanding of what I said but let me try again. Paul is speaking/writing TO believers ABOUT the jewish unbelief. He clearly warns the believers that if they fall into unbelief as the Jews did - they too will be cutoff. However, God is able to graft the Jews in again just as he can do that for any backslider.

Reuben where does God say he will graft back in unbelievers that were once grafted in and cut off? It doesn't God said he will forgive unbelief not sin. Once sinner has tasted the truth and left it I don't see a way back.

Unbelief is sin.

Jeremiah 3:1 (KJV)
1 They say, If a man put away his wife, and she go from him, and become another man's, shall he return unto her again? shall not that land be greatly polluted? but thou hast played the harlot with many lovers; yet return again to me, saith the LORD.

You had asked for Scriptures and here is another one. Israel had left God, but He made a plea to them to return, meaning that it can happen.

And of course we have the Peter situation.


Then how do you explain Peter?

Wait wait wait you have us in Romans and you said Romans said God will re-graft back a sinner, I would like to know where you saw that.

After we discuss Romans we can move on to Jeremiah or Peter or where ever but I would like us both to understand what the passage you used in Romans is saying. We build brick upon brick and iron sharpens iron.