Dake Bible Discussion Board ⇒ KEEP REPENTING OR ETERNAL SECURITY?

[Hill Top]

How about the seven churches of Revelation Chapter 2 & 3. Jesus repeatably advises these church goers to "repent" and be "overcomers" or else they will not sit with Him on the throne of God, 3:21. Is this not a warning to all church goers that they must overcome Satan, the flesh and the world to be saved?? These scriptures strongly advises those calling themselves Christians not to sin and is a very strong argument against eternal security. To the church of Laodicea he warns, Because you say, ‘I am rich, have become wealthy, and have need of nothing’—and do not know that you are wretched, miserable, poor, blind, and naked:"

I revert back to my old thinking which agrees with Mr. Dake,, we must make every effort not to sin and when we do we should immediately repent and confess our sin to Jesus, our High Priest.

Better to start being a Christian "later" than "never".

[luchnia]

Let me rephrase it in easier terms.
In your understanding one in sin proves one was not reborn of God and could have never been born of God.

The "fruit" of the seed determines whose seed we are born of...right?

The first part aligns with scripture, the second part does not.
The part your understanding does not allow for is the scriptural context that shows that one in sin could also prove that they may have been previously born of God as scripture shows even in the book the verse in question comes from.

How so?
Better supply the scripture that says the seed of God can bear devilish fruit.
Or are you supposing that just because a devil does good things for a year, or five, he was once bearing Godly seed and fruit?
Don't be fooled by the wiles of the devil.
It is written..."For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." (2 Cor 11:13-15)
It won't be till the final judgement that the REAL spirit of a man will be revealed.

If a doctrine is built upon a verse such as this out of context it is like a scale that cannot balance correctly and after faith is built in the verse alone the ability to rationally allow the context can become lost.

God's seed cannot bring forth sin.
Build your context around that, and not around what you may have witnessed from Gandhi or some other wicked man who does "supposed" good for a time while harboring the heart of the devil.

I already knew you would not answer to the other text. I don't know anything about any Gandhi, never met him, but what I do know is you have been supplied scripture and yet what do you do with it? Never do you answer it and yet it is inspired by God just as the verse you use. BTW, John or Paul never called God's saints devils.

[branham1965]

Well said dolph.

Hilltop, you are saying that immediately after every Christian is born again they never sin again. On paper that may be a clever answer but far from reality. After saying the sinners prayer the baby born again Christian has to immediately contend with Satan, his own flesh and the world. He mus also immediately start the process of renewing of his mind,

Romans 12:1,2, I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

NO CAN BE or ever has been PERFECT immediately after being born again. That's like asking a baby not to be selfish immediately after birth. Time to be real, man. The Christian walk is progressive and if you are saying you have never sinned since being born again, with all due respect, who is going to believe that?

[branham1965]

That is the year Reverend
Branham went to be with the Lord.

Thankyou Branham 1965, THW, what is the significance of the 1965 in your name?

[Hill Top]

I already knew you would not answer to the other text.

What are you talking about?
1 John 2;1?
I thought I explained it perfectly.
If you have another POV, lets hear it.

I don't know anything about any Gandhi, never met him, but what I do know is you have been supplied scripture and yet what do you do with it? Never do you answer it and yet it is inspired by God just as the verse you use. BTW, John or Paul never called God's saints devils.

Saints, those born of God, are not devils.
Sinners, those not born of God, bring forth the fruit of their father. (1 John 3:10)

[Hill Top]

Hilltop, you are saying that immediately after every Christian is born again they never sin again. On paper that may be a clever answer but far from reality.

I don't "say it", 1 John 3:9 says it.

After saying the sinners prayer the baby born again Christian has to immediately contend with Satan, his own flesh and the world. He mus also immediately start the process of renewing of his mind,

There is no sinners prayer in the bible.
Your "formula" left out the repentance from sin and the baptism in Jesus' name for the remission of past sins.
Thereby cheating the new believer of the opportunity to crucify the flesh and bury it. And to be raised with Christ to walk in newness of life.
By adhering to Acts 2:38 and Rom 6:3-6 you end up with both Gal 5:24 and Rom 6:7.

Romans 12:1,2, I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that you present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. 2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.

Impossible to do without a real repentance from sin and baptism into Christ and into His death, burial, and resurrection.

NO CAN BE or ever has been PERFECT immediately after being born again.

We start out perfect, and grow from there.
The rebirth makes us children of God, and His seed within us prevents sin.
Grape vines cannot bear figs...remember?

That's like asking a baby not to be selfish immediately after birth. Time to be real, man. The Christian walk is progressive and if you are saying you have never sinned since being born again, with all due respect, who is going to believe that?

Christians can and should be growing in grace and knowledge after rebirth, but other wise there is a flaw in your reasoning.
Newly reborn Christians are no longer "of the devil".
They quit acting like the devilish, from whom they were previously born.
They start to bring forth the fruit of the One who sired them.
They can't bring forth the fruit of any other progenitor but God.
Fig trees cannot bring forth the fruit of the grape.

[luchnia]

Hill Top, I don't know how much importance you give Dake but in his Index of 1 John he lists 7 fallacies of I John 3:9 and first on the list is "That a born again man can not sin." Peter and Judas spent 3 years with Christ and they both sinned.

You said above that there is no sinner's prayer; Aren't you just being difficult? I am talking about a person choosing to be born again as Jesus recommended.

No one can argue with the scripture you list and your standards for the Christian walk are admirable but way too idealistic for a newly born Christian and are something few ministers preach or live themselves. The Bible isn't written like a text book or I think your scriptures would be found on page one.

Bottom line: (1) I don't believe you or anyone has never sinned after being born again.
(2) I think the Christian walk is progressive just as the natural life of a human being is.
(3) I think God judges us according to the knowledge that we have gleaned over the years and therefore a wise
man like yourself will be held to a much higher standard than an illiterate farm boy in Middle Ages Holy
Roman Empire or an Inca lad in Peru 3,000 years ago.
(4) Your belief that "we start perfect and grow from there is way over the top idealistic. I've been saved 41
years and still have questions regarding salvation. For example, Paul said not even the Jews were saved
by keeping the Law. Aren't we saved by faith in God?? Yet you are saying we must keep every law every day
to be saved. There are thousands of Bible experts on both sides of this question which brings me back to
point 3, that God will judge each person according to the knowledge he has gleaned over a life time which
keeps changing over a lifetime. What say you?

Dolph, it is 100% correct that whosoever born of God cannot sin. It is also 100% correct that whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not, and it is also correct that if any man sin he has an advocate with the Father. All of these are correct and make up the whole. Words like "abideth" and "remain" have meaning and indicate an individual action. John gives commands to the saints on how they can remain in Christ to endure and not fall away (Chapter 1). We know that many did fall away as John and Paul illustrate. Some saints fell away to the point of apostasy.

Omitting chapter 1 and 2 and the rest of the verses of chapter 3, etc., builds the erroneous doctrine by man and of man that a saint cannot fall away, whereas receiving the whole of the light builds the doctrine of God by the Spirit and entails the whole of what was taught by the Spirit through the scriptures.

How does that which they heard remain in them (chapter 2) and how do they continue to abide in Him? What does it mean "If any man sin..."? It is good to glean that the chaff might be blown away to leave the grain.

[Hill Top]

Hill Top, I don't know how much importance you give Dake but in his Index of 1 John he lists 7 fallacies of I John 3:9 and first on the list is "That a born again man can not sin."

Then 1 John 3:9-10 are lies.
So is Romans 6:7.
I will agree with his opinion with this caveat...The reborn who are deemed to have fallen away were never really reborn in the first place.
Their conduct may have been ideal for a while, but, without the power of God, was done by their own ability.
Had they never committed a sin, (after rebirth) they would have been judged "reborn" at the last day's judgment.
I mean, really, what is the proof of rebirth?

Peter and Judas spent 3 years with Christ and they both sinned.

Not after receiving the gift of the Holy Ghost.
And Judas died.

You said above that there is no sinner's prayer; Aren't you just being difficult? I am talking about a person choosing to be born again as Jesus recommended.

Then you should be saying..."Complying with Act's 2:38, and turning from sin and getting baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of past sins."

No one can argue with the scripture you list and your standards for the Christian walk are admirable but way too idealistic for a newly born Christian and are something few ministers preach or live themselves. The Bible isn't written like a text book or I think your scriptures would be found on page one.

But..."no one can argue with the scriptures I list". Why are you trying to break your own rule?
Isn't the total summation of Christianity "idealistic"?
Totally different than the ways and results of a previous covenant that could not make men perfect?
How much more idealistic can you be than being a "new creature"?

Bottom line: (1) I don't believe you or anyone has never sinned after being born again.
(2) I think the Christian walk is progressive just as the natural life of a human being is.
(3) I think God judges us according to the knowledge that we have gleaned over the years and therefore a wise
man like yourself will be held to a much higher standard than an illiterate farm boy in Middle Ages Holy
Roman Empire or an Inca lad in Peru 3,000 years ago.
(4) Your belief that "we start perfect and grow from there is way over the top idealistic. I've been saved 41
years and still have questions regarding salvation. For example, Paul said not even the Jews were saved
by keeping the Law. Aren't we saved by faith in God?? Yet you are saying we must keep every law every day
to be saved. There are thousands of Bible experts on both sides of this question which brings me back to
point 3, that God will judge each person according to the knowledge he has gleaned over a life time which
keeps changing over a lifetime. What say you?

Here is the "laws to keep every day"...Love God above all else, and love your neighbor as you love yourself.
It is written..."There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it. (1 Cor 10:13)
The escapes from temptation are there to be used.
If you don't believe "you or anyone has never sinned after being born again.", how effective do you think your "progressive walk" has ever been?
Seems fruitless to me.

[Hill Top]

Hilltop, you wrote, "Totally different than the ways and results of a previous covenant that could not make men perfect"
If the previous covenant could not make men perfect, does that mean no Jews were saved? How was David saved?

The OT had atonements for sin, sacrificial animals for blood payments for sins. But before Jesus' crucifixion and more importantly resurrection, all men were walking in the flesh. Whereas we can now walk in the Spirit after joining with Christ at water baptism-immersion into Him and His death...and resurrection as new creatures born of the seed of God.

BTW, do you belong to any denomination or Christian group?

Yes, "The Church by Christ Jesus (Eph 3:21)"
We have no "social footprint", so don't bother looking us up on line.

[luchnia]

Luchnia, Good thoughts but wasn't the whole Reformation based on the fact that we are saved by grace and not by works or keeping the Law?

Let me ask you a very simple question. Can grace save you without faith? I know you already know the answer is a resounding no. It is through faith that it might be by grace. One must work faith to be saved. Without faith one cannot get to faith to the point of saving. Of course there are certainly other areas and types of faith.